The Dog Whisperer??

Well, for what it's worth, wolves' natural instincts are also to fight to the death or inflict serious bodily harm if they must.

do they do this within their own pack?


with respect to animal rights activists:

i fully agree that puppy mill breeders should be fined heavily & tossed in jail
i fully agree that people who put dogs into fighting competitions should be thrown in the slammer
and i think the US NAvy is totally irresponsible when they blast their SONARs through the oceans thus causing damage to the dolphins, whales, and other critters and it would be a great justice if these humans had 140dB of energy blasted right into their eardrums to see how they'd feel.
the list can go on..... . . . . .

now let me go willy nilly over and edit my post to rephrase something - change the word, all to, some.... and add a few more comments

Um, just want to throw this out there....
Dogs are not wolves.
 
And here's something else:
We are not dogs.
 
It feels like this is turning into a debate for another thread....?

Since the marathon massage, I've never needed to be "alpha". All good things whether it be ball chasing, running, massage, food, etc., come from me. Foster mom said he was afraid of cars he but jumped in and did a 12 hour drive with no problem. They say Mali's have a difficult time adjusting but I saw just the opposite. That dog loves me. I've stood in front of a doorway to teach "wait" to four dogs because I didn't have enough skill to do it otherwise and was going crazy. Truthfully, I saw no bad reaction. Some dogs can do fine with other forms of training, but I wouldn't recommend it for a dog with an uncertain past or temperment.
 
We had a bit of a problem a couple of weeks after adoption that Floyd kept biting me when he was excited. OK. Why is he biting? Not because he wants to take over the home, but because he is excited. In that case asking for a sit/wait worked. I also let him have something in his mouth such as a toy for several months. Perhaps scruffing him would have been faster.  
 
Floyd isn't a difficult personality. His foster mom is a breeder of ACD's and is a vet tech. She would have continued to keep him if she didn't think we matched up. I will never completely change Floyd's behaviors in all circumstances. I can change his behavior when he's with me most of the time, just because. He's turned on a dime while chasing a cat because I asked him to, but remains afraid of the vet. I can't communicate to him that it's OK. The funny thing is that his foster mom, vet tech said he was fine at the vet's, so maybe he thinks he's being left.
 
Because of my experieces with Floyd, I re-evaluated how I treat fosters. I want them to move up in the world when they find their home so while they are fosters have them sleep in crates and eat only kibble. I'm not unkind, but not affectionate to fosters any more than I can help. DH shows the new home massage.

Perhaps scruffing him would have been faster.

 
No it wouldn't. I used to scruff. It physically stops the behavior at that moment. Shadow has always been mouthy when he's excited. I call off and it works. When I scruffed him, I most specifically did NOT cause pain. It was like momma would have done, without as much force. He would lower and roll himself. And just like a pup, jump up when done and go on doing whatever. It doesn't train. And a +P must be harsh enough to be effective in the first or second try, otherwise, it's only irritating or rewarding, as attention.
 
So, in your estimation, some of CM's physical ways would have had either no effect or a bad effect on your dog, considering it's shady background, right?

**Content removed. Attacking.**, especially since this is not the CM thread, but if the topic is:

But is this the right way. I read the book "Culture Clash" (among others) which strongly disagrees with physical correction. What are your thoughts?

, then I must stand up and tell the OP that no, CM's way is not the way to handle most family pets, and that if you take Jean Donaldson's advice to heart (and Pat Miller's, too - read "The Power of Positive Dog Training"), you will be much more successful in your dealings with the majority of dogs than you will using the methods of someone who gets bitten as often as CM does. The truth is, getting bitten is something that good trainers and behavior professionals are mostly able to avoid, even when dealing with some pretty tough customers.
**Content removed. Attacking.** the dogs - they will eventually tell you what you need to know - IF you meet enough of them and keep your mind open to new learning.


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which thread chuffy?


no, dogs are not wolves and dogs are not humans
but they sure bee a helluva lot closer to wolves than people bee, genetically, socially, and psychologically.

I was being sarcastic when I said that scruffing may have been faster.
 
I am extremely fortunate that when I knew nothing I was guided by DH who has great instincts. I'm much more concerned with the why's of the whole thing than anything else. Floyd has bitten twice that I know of, once the AC person and once someone that climbed our fence. I don't blame him in either circumstance, but I need to make sure he doesn't die for his actions.  Due to his breeding and background, Floyd will probably always bite if provoked.
 
I grew up with St. Bernards that hated each other and am quite afraid of dog situations, but not dogs. I've never met the really bad dogs and I hope I never will.
 
I know Floyd isn't a bad dog. He's the best dog I could ever hope for. But if I forced him, I worry about biting. He loves and trusts me, if he didn't, he's a big dog that bites.

Maybe it doesn't occur to you, but it does to me that some of the skills involved in being an effective pack leader could be really useful no matter how many legs a potential aggressor might have. It's true, as Cesar points out, that dogs are dogs and not people, but energy is energy, and an animal (person or dog) who projects energies on the fear/aggression wavelength will tend to evoke the same response from those around him, whether from dogs or from people. Learning to break that automatic reflex response of fear and aggression and replace it with the "calm, assertive energy" of a good pack leader would be a tremendous skill to have, and the advantage of practicing with your problematic dog would be that their reactions give you instant feedback on how well you're doing.

 
 
Great Post!!!luvmyswissy.My thoughts exactly.That is what a lot of people miss when they watch the show. The reason why he gets such good results is due to his energy and body language!That is what I take away everytime I watch his show  is to have calm energy and good body language, which dogs are a masters at reading.Using calm energy and body language I believe any training method can be succesful!I just wish he would use some praise  and not be too physical.

boditosa

I've read his book and have trained 3 dogs 2 with issues using the alfa roll and the sound "schhh". 

An alpha wolf that forces a non-submissive challenger onto its back is very, very close to killing that animal.  True alphas normally rule with just a look.  The submissive dog offers a roll like a military salute to a superior officier.  This means the human version of the "alpha roll" does not represent a normal wolf discipline technique.  
 
I adamently object to CM teaching the alpha roll for several reasons:
(1)  there are too many people who will try it, fail, get themselves seriously hurt, and probably destroy the dog,
(2)  there are good ways (albeit perhaps a little slower) to accomplish the same thing without danger, and
(3)  I don't think the threat of serious physical harm has any place in establishing a relationship between a human and a dog.
 
If it really comes down to exchanging threats, most people are going to lose to any reasonably sized dog.  The crucial elements here are teeth, jaw strength, and maneuverability.  Humans are at a distinct disadvantage.
 
IMO, many people that are "successful" with an alpha roll didn't need to use it.  The dog already respected the human as a pack leader (in control of resources), the dog was just pushy, and NILIF would have worked just as well.  The other people that "succeed" had enough upper body strength to terrify a dog much smaller than themselves.  
 
Teaching a potentially dangerous dog handling technique to the masses and then saying "Don't try this at home" is rather absurd unless you clearly demonstrate what happens when a novice makes a mistake.  Most people wouldn't care to be the human in that demonstration.

I've never really been sure what an "alpha roll" is supposed to teach the dog. That you're dangerous? that you do unpleasant things to dogs?
How is that supposed to help you teach the dog to come when called?  "Gee I should run fast towards that human who is mean to me". Yeah right.
 
 

Maybe it doesn't occur to you, but it does to me that some of the skills involved in being an effective pack leader could be really useful no matter how many legs a potential aggressor might have. It's true, as Cesar points out, that dogs are dogs and not people, but energy is energy, and an animal (person or dog) who projects energies on the fear/aggression wavelength will tend to evoke the same response from those around him, whether from dogs or from people. Learning to break that automatic reflex response of fear and aggression and replace it with the "calm, assertive energy" of a good pack leader would be a tremendous skill to have, and the advantage of practicing with your problematic dog would be that their reactions give you instant feedback on how well you're doing.

 
luvmyswissy, thats a great post and that is one of the parts of CMs whole philosophy that I agree with.  But this is not what was questioned by the OP.... the OP was questioning the physical corrections used.  Bearing in mind that CM is sometimes a last chance for dogs then I say better a poke in the neck or a SCCHHT than a needle in his leg.  But on the whole I think that style is not for the average dog owner and nor should it be a first resort.
 
Alpha rolling is not training.

I was being sarcastic when

 
Sorry, I missed that subtlety. My bad.[]
 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Maybe it doesn't occur to you, but it does to me that some of the skills involved in being an effective pack leader could be really useful no matter how many legs a potential aggressor might have. It's true, as Cesar points out, that dogs are dogs and not people, but energy is energy, and an animal (person or dog) who projects energies on the fear/aggression wavelength will tend to evoke the same response from those around him, whether from dogs or from people. Learning to break that automatic reflex response of fear and aggression and replace it with the "calm, assertive energy" of a good pack leader would be a tremendous skill to have, and the advantage of practicing with your problematic dog would be that their reactions give you instant feedback on how well you're doing.

luvmyswissy, thats a great post and that is one of the parts of CMs whole philosophy that I agree with. But this is not what was questioned by the OP.... the OP was questioning the physical corrections used. Bearing in mind that CM is sometimes a last chance for dogs then I say better a poke in the neck or a SCCHHT than a needle in his leg. But on the whole I think that style is not for the average dog owner and nor should it be a first resort.

Personal opinion:
I think the energy factor is actually key to understanding Millan's physicality, and failing to account for it is what makes his physicality seem brutal to some.

I agree, Millan is not an average man, he is gifted, has a talent. His energy and impulse are fascinating to watch, and something to aspire to, but most of us simply aren't capable of reproducing it.

A question for CM followers:

Does he caution not to try an alpha roll on primitive breeds?  The odds of a bite go way up with those breeds.  They are not as domesticated as most breeds.
 
My Basenji foster was very strong dog at only 25lbs.  This was an animal that even tried to run from a yippy Chihuahua, so he was not at all dominant.  His flaws were that he was too mouthy and had a bit of fear aggression (with plenty of warning, but if pushed further he would bite) - no food aggression, no dog aggression, no escaping.  Overall a very nice Basenji.
 
The dog quickly got attached to me, but regardless of that I am very sure that an alpha roll would have gotten me seriously bitten.  I believe that he would have literally panicked and fought for his life. 
 
Whether via fear or anger, a dog that fights the alpha roll is very likely to show strength much greater than most people would expect - sort of like when people lift cars in an emergency.  When you add to that the strong survival instincts of a primitive breed, it is an explosive combination.

An alpha wolf that forces a non-submissive challenger onto its back is very, very close to killing that animal.

with all due respect janet, this is not true. an alpha wolf will keep the others in their place. if another pack member rises up to the challenge, it if generally a quick bout and it's over. rarely, do fights to the death occur. this is true with grizzly bears, walruses, and mountain goats. the weaker male (i say male because that is usually what they are) will quickly figure out to remove the challenge &/or submit and then it is done and over. in nature, it simply takes too much energy to fight to the death - but it will happen on rare occasion. once someone submits, the winner does not continue to go on and kill his opponent, pinning down is sufficient and the animals know that.

to us humans, however, it sure does look lke someone is gonna get killed, which is more like an emotional response detatched from reality.

(1) there are too many people who will try it, fail, get themselves seriously hurt, and probably destroy the dog,

i agree with you on this one. there are just too many people out there that will go and think that it's easy (it is actually) but when they project the wrong energy (fear most likely) the animals will pick up on that and when the dog bites or something like that, the fear only escalates. it really just takes common sense (well, it may be common sense to some but certainly not all) but not everyone will actually be able to project an alpha role. there also a lot of incompetant people out ther as well that simply don't have a clue.

(3) I don't think the threat of serious physical harm has any place in establishing a relationship between a human and a dog.

i don't think that dogs (or any6 other animals rationalize threats the way that humans do. from thje viewpoint of a dog, an agressive correction is not a threat (as if they might be thinking something like a human would do: "oh gosh, this guy is attacking me so i had better calm down before i get a bloody nose") but rather, simply an assertive gesture from a dominant source. the intent from the human should never be seen in terms of "i am going to threaten you unless you behave" but instead, a mentality that says "no" by using dominant physical gesture.