The Dog Whisperer??

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

Leash training a puppy is totally different than anything CM might do with an adult dog.

has c.m. ever had a puppy on his show yet?

a few nights ago, i decided to get all 3 of our dogs to eat meals in the same general area... each one seperated by perhaps 6-8 feet. jasper(the puppy) of course wanted to dive into their food bowls while they were eating.

what i did first was this - isolate our big dogs by leaving them outside.

i put all 3 bowls down on the floor and then let jasper in.

he wanted to go for the adult dog bowls first but i step in and blocked him by positioning my body between him and the bowls that were off limits. this went on for about 5 minutes before he seemed to have it figured out that i was not going to let him near.

now i picked up all 3 bowls.

then i let the adults in and put all of the bowls down in their respective places. the pup left the adult dogs alone. occasioannly, i would nudge him out of the way but it went well.

what i did initially is what c.m. does all the time - claim ownership. it works - even with puppies - but i am still present at feeding time just in case he slips and tries to get his head next to their heads while they're eating.

so far, 3 successful meals together.


so maybe SOME of the c.m techniques can be applied to pups. they are just as much pack animals as the adults are and are in a state of learning what works and what doesn't work at a very fast tate.


we also give our dogs biscuits in the morning. puppy boy tried to steal one out of mandi's mouth and off the floor right in front of her when we first got him. she snarled (i did not correct her for this) and it was not long that he learned quite rapidly not to try to snatch food.

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

That sounds like a technique that i would use (and was the cause of a heated debate a few days ago), it works like a charm isnt it? []

Regarding your question about puppies i have a link and the second topic talks about it:
http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/blog/Season2ep06.php

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

running an animal into exhaustion is a "calming" technique????  

Define "exhaustion", i saw the episode more than once and i never saw something remotely close to that

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

it certainly is not part of "ceasars way"

Sure is not but people tend to "include" a lot of misconceptions into his techniques, ie. "kicks", "chokes", "bullying", etc. Of course if people does not undertand them they will not get it right []

ORIGINAL: boditosa

personaly i love cesear
I've read his book and have trained 3 dogs 2 with issues using the alfa roll and the sound "schhh". one must be the pack leader to gain the respect of their dog. to me his training is not silly at all , he is the real deal
read his book ceaser's way to learn more

*grabs an umbrella because the storm is coming and hopes Ixas_girl is prepared for a couple extra hours on the moderation job* []

ORIGINAL: Chuffy




CM did explain what he was doing and while I do not remember the exact wording he di dexplain that part of the technique was to tire the dog first.  He was not just trying to make the dog submit to capture.  He was deliberately keeping the dog on the move, using a long object (possibly a broom) as an extension of himself and movin g towards the dog to make the dog move again and again.  At the end of this part of the session he explained that now the dog was tired, but he (CM) was not.

I don't think anyone would advocate running a dog to the point of exhaustion - not even CM, but I have seen many members (of all stripes) advise owners having trouble training dogs not to pull on their leash, to give the dog a good work out first to help burn off some energy. It seems like a similar train of thought to me although I never saw the particular episode so I can't comment on CM's application.

Espencer,

You don't happen to have a link to the episode that's being talked about, do you?

JMHO, but when you chase a dog, it usually learns that the human is scary, or that it's a game, or not to come when called.  Not what I want my dogs to learn.  I think a fistful of liverwurst works much better as a motivator.

espencer,

yes, it worked like a charm.

btw, i took my lil' pup on his 2'cd walk thins morning around the neighborhood. no problems - he did outstanding.

the firm leader/pack mentality works - absolutly.

update on the leash training:

after i observed him freeze on his first leash encounter as i took him in for his shots, i decided to become proactive; my steps for leash training were a follows:

day 1) put a collar on him (total lapsed time, 15 seconds)

day2) in the back yard, i walked 3 complete circles and back and forth across the back yard. any restraint was met by a quick "tug" by me. i walked briskly to set a higher and positive energy level.
then in the evening on day2, we went out front and walked 200 yards down the sidewalk (total lasped time ~5 to 7 minutes for both sessions)

day3) we did a 1/2 mile walk around the neighborhood. leash trainingis finished! he did great. (total walk time ~ 10 minutes)

Reminder: The OP's topic invites opinion about the level and tone of physical force in Cesar Millan's dog handling style. This is contrasted with the writing of handlers like Jean Donaldson in her book "Culture Clash."

All related discussions and tangents are welcome.

To give respect to the orginator of this thread, and the topic s/he offered, specific and focused discussions about other aspects and practices of Millan's philosophies may be discussed by starting a new thread.

If you have questions about how to do that, feel free to PM (private message) me.

Thank you for your consideration.

**Content removed. Attacking.**
Forum Rule #3: Debating and discussion is fine. We encourage it. It's how we all learn. However, respect your fellow members. Different posters are likely to express different opinions, and while they may differ from yours, everyone is entitled to express theirs freely. We will not tolerate rudeness, insults or personal attacks. Do not disrespect, taunt, bother, bug or flame anyone, either on the forum or via private messages or email.

CM doesn't consider himself to be a trainer but a "dog behavior specialist." The scientific label would be dog or animal behaviorist and requires credentials from accredited schools and recognition from some professional societies. If what CM does is behavior mod, then it can't be considered every day training. Or am I confused? The reason I say this is if this thread is about CM's physical style, then is it training or behavior mod or do the fields, in fact, overlap? As for his style, it is not based on actual wolf behavior, as I understand it. The reason I mention that is that the terms alpha and pack mentality are standard terms in the style. The alpha in a pack rarely initiates a correction. Almost all of the time, the interaction is iniated by a lesser rank who provides submissive behavior because it is rewarding for them to do so. The quick lick and grab by the alpha is a reassurance that they are in the group, which is usually a family, rather than a group of dissociative wolves.
 
But some people have had success with it, anyway. So, I'm not debating if someone has had success but I would discuss CM's style and it's validity or level of appropriateness, regarding case by case situations.

I've read his book and have trained 3 dogs 2 with issues using the alfa roll and the sound "schhh".

I believe CM always recommends professional advice before doing physical things such as the alpha roll.

Some of Patricia McConnell's studies were about the commanality of sounds. She did a study of the likeness of sounds that jockey's use to encourage their mounts to go faster. It was found that no matter the language of the jockey or what the horse had been trained with, the sounds were very similar. I believe that this sound is similar in that it encourages the dog's attention upon you. Way back in the seimi dark ages of training, The Monks, encouraged people to give dogs names that ended with the soft "s" sound, the soft "ah" sound or a hard vowel sound to get their attention more easily. That may be true. We recently found a cat, and since it seems that no one is claiming her, named her Nikki (after Nick Cave). While we were trying out names, the dogs ears really perked to that one, as did hers.
 
ETA: I have read CM's book.

sounds... hehehehehe, it's funny that you ention the sound that CM used, "shhhhhhh"

i've found that it can be almost anything as long as it's short and to the point.

it can be "shhhhh" or "heyyyyy" or a whistle.

it's not the sound per se (tho you CAN train dogs to know what certain phrases or whistles mean) but rather, it's much more to do with the dogs reaction and how he reads you after a "shhhhh" or "heyyyyy" attention grabber.

many times, the "shhhhh" is simply an audio gesture to break the dog's focus and redirect his focus towards you.


of course, since i'm a lazy calm assertive pack leader, i like using things that flow right off my tounge with little or no effort... so "shhhhh" or a whistle is what i use most often.

The reason I say this is if this thread is about CM's physical style, then is it training or behavior mod or do the fields, in fact, overlap?

 
I firmly believe that the fields do overlap.
 
DH is a good example. He knows nothing about training beyond the classes Tasha took in her first year, and he dismissed a good portion of that. Yet he understands animal psychology in an instinctive way and can achieve desired behavior from that understanding. He's helped get a couple of dogs off the streets with no bite, helped women with dogs that fear men etc.
 
When I adopted Floyd, we were separated as a couple, but I asked him to help me with the adoption, because I wanted the best for Floyd. Hard thing to admit. Even while we were at foster mom's, Floyd displayed more confidence than she'd seen in four months. He taught me to massage Floyd based on his feel of Floyd's response. I sat in a dirt hole and massaged Floyd for several hours and he's been my dog ever since.
 
I have difficulty with Floyd, but never, ever because of his willingness to please. He is easily trained, just has certain responses to some situations.
 
 

He taught me to massage Floyd based on his feel of Floyd's response. I sat in a dirt hole and massaged Floyd for several hours and he's been my dog ever since.

I have difficulty with Floyd, but never, ever because of his willingness to please. He is easily trained, just has certain responses to some situations.

 
But there's a difference between massaging a dog, which is obviously rewarding and has nothing to do with "alpha." Would collar pops and scruffs and blocking help you with your dog?

ORIGINAL: denise m

ORIGINAL: Chuffy




CM did explain what he was doing and while I do not remember the exact wording he di dexplain that part of the technique was to tire the dog first.  He was not just trying to make the dog submit to capture.  He was deliberately keeping the dog on the move, using a long object (possibly a broom) as an extension of himself and movin g towards the dog to make the dog move again and again.  At the end of this part of the session he explained that now the dog was tired, but he (CM) was not.

I don't think anyone would advocate running a dog to the point of exhaustion - not even CM, but I have seen many members (of all stripes) advise owners having trouble training dogs not to pull on their leash, to give the dog a good work out first to help burn off some energy. It seems like a similar train of thought to me although I never saw the particular episode so I can't comment on CM's application.

Denise, if you are training a Stay or Heel or Loose lead walking then having a good bit of exercise and play first makes sense.  The dog in question had fear issues, possibly aggression although I am not sure how severe it was.  Rehabbing a dog, getting him to trust you, allaying his fears.... those are very different from simply teaching a Stay or loose lead walking and require different and more considerate handling IMO.

My main problem with the techniques he displays is occasional lack of considerate handling, of which this is one example.  I do see it as being on the same level as the physical contact described in the OP - in fact, it is often worse, as Angelique has described, touch can be used to communicate effectively with a dog and this does not necessarily stress the dog out.  Whereas this "tiring out" thing seems to me to me misplaced and poor judgement on CMs part. 

I've been watching the marathons of the Dog Whisperer w. Cesar Milan and he seems to be very physical with the dogs when trying to correct problems, like kicking or grabbing the dog. He says when he does this, it doesn't hurt the dog. And he always gets the dogs to behave.

But is this the right way. I read the book "Culture Clash" (among others) which strongly disagrees with physical correction. What are your thoughts?

I do like how he emphasizes being the leader of the pack & it seems a lot of his cases he has to train the human more than the dog!

hiya brandy....

for anyone (including yourself), i HIGHLY recommend watching a video called "Living With Wolves" that was aired on the Discovery Channel awhile back filmed more or less by Jim and Jamie Dutcher.

In this Idaho wilderness setting, you can observe first hand how a wolf pack operates. Pay special attention to the alpha male. Ceasar is no more abusive in his corrections than what occurs in a wolf pack, a dog's natural instinct.

The video is available at the Discovery Channel store and it's really a great addition to a DVD library imo.

Anyway, some of the animal rights activists can go and raise their red flags over CM's rehabilitation tactics, but unless they do the work themselves and rehabilitate a "red zone" case, they just are all talk and no action. to the ones that do work and rehabilitate the red zone cases, more power to them (there, how that? - pardon me tho, my words i use are rarely perfect and if i come across as being politically incorrect, then so be it)

What works, works, for a reason. For the most part, humans don't seem to have a clue that dogs simply do not respond to human psychology in the way that so many people expect them to. i see this all the time at dog parks where out of control dogs and their owners are better off staying on sidewalks using a leash)

Well, for what it's worth, wolves' natural instincts are also to fight to the death or inflict serious bodily harm if they must.

ETA:

Anyway, all of the animal rights activists

Okay, seriously? It's only animal rights activists that have taken exception to the man's methods? News to me that Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson are now animal rights activists.

My lack of patience I know is bleeding over from another thread, but I really wish people would educate themselves about the ENTIRE breadth of the concept of animal rights as a serious ethical issue (ie, something that is actually studied and written about in university philosophy programs) before throwing that term about willy-nilly just to mean anyone they don't agree with like it's a bad word or something. It's just a straw man most of the time the term is used and I'm getting fairly tired of it.