The Dog Whisperer??

I've never really been sure what an "alpha roll" is supposed to teach the dog.

if one is not sure what an alpha role is, then one should begin to research it instead of jumping to conclusions such as:

That you're dangerous?

or

that you do unpleasant things to dogs?

or

How is that supposed to help you teach the dog to come when called?

what's going on here is that people so often think that dogs think like people do - that they actually run an internal dialogue that would dsay something like:

"Gee I should run fast towards that human who is mean to me". Yeah right.

but it's really just the opposite. dogs live in the present moment and react to what is in front of their noses so to speak. they don't go off and think "gee, i had better not come when called because i'm gonna get whacked" but an incompetant person could certainly ruin a dog by causing the dog to learn to come and receive a whack.... which is altogether incorrect discipline. if the correction does not occue right as the dog is doing unwanted behavior, the dog has already gone past the inmcident because they live in present moment. but if one were to train a dog to "come over here" and receive a whack, then by association alone, the dog will not come over - which then, is not the dogs fault but the trainers.

please read ceasars first book - it covers all this stuff about basic psychology...... and not all humans are going to be able to "get it" unless they can step outside of themselves and look at things from a totally different perspectiive.

my 2 cents

-coyote
(hoping i don't receive a whack for being assertive in this post)

I think the energy factor is actually key to understanding Millan's physicality, and failing to account for it is what makes his physicality seem brutal to some.

exactly so.

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote
dogs live in the present moment and react to what is in front of their noses so to speak. they don't go off and think "gee, i had better not come when called because i'm gonna get whacked" but an incompetant person could certainly ruin a dog by causing the dog to learn to come and receive a whack.... which is altogether incorrect discipline. if the correction does not occue right as the dog is doing unwanted behavior, the dog has already gone past the inmcident because they live in present moment. but if one were to train a dog to "come over here" and receive a whack, then by association alone, the dog will not come over - which then, is not the dogs fault but the trainers.

I'd like to see something evidence-wise to back up your assertion that dogs only live in the moment and have a limited ability to remember and reason. 

There are many dogs who are bred to be thinking dogs - to make decisions & figure things out.  Do they think like humans?  Of course not.  But dogs aren't sea slugs.  Reminds me of the Far Side cartoon with two amoeba: the wife is complaining to the husband "Stimulus response! Stimulus response! Don't you ever think?" 

lostcoyote, have you read much about dogs other than what Milan has written?  Milan is a self-taught dog handler.  He isn't a behaviorist, nor does he claim to be. Moreover, Milan's more exciting and controversial techniques are used in his "rehabilitation" of problem dogs, not as starting point with new dogs. 

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote
(hoping i don't receive a whack for being assertive in this post)

Moderator's note:

Hi everyone,

Your enthusiasm for the subject is admirable. And thanks for bringing your contributions back within. []

Strong opinion is clearly welcome here, regardless of one's point-of-view.
We only run into problems when posts are disruptive or disrespectful, especially by "making things personal".
As long as comments are aimed at the content of the thread and not fellow posters, no one gets "whacked." [] LOL.

As always, it helps to be clear about your purpose for posting:
contribute your opinion, knowledge, experience? [] vs. shutdown/attack another poster? [:@]
Also helpful: remembering to start a new thread if you'd like to take on a single issue that appears in the course of discussion.

Carry on! []

reasoning and remembering by association are present moment activities.
dogs can work out problems presented to them on a real time basis. so yeah, they can reason but it's by association of their trials and errors convoluted with present moment activity. i doubt that they're off thinking things like "i'd better get to bed early tonight cuz i need to get up early and check the back lawn for new gopher holes" - no, they'll go out on the back lan in the morning and if present moment activities catch their eyes like a new gopher mound that is moving, then they can empower their reasoning to try to catch the gopher.

likewise, they are not going to reflect back on an unresolved problem last week and work it out in their mind like humans can. nor are they going to dwell in the past and have regrets or plan out the future of their lives like the way human beings can.... cuz they do not have the cerebral cortex to be able to perform those advanced brain functions like, we do.

if you want proof, watch the video i recommended called "living with wolves" by Jim and Jamie Dutcher (sold at discovery channel store)

if you want to examine how the human brain is divided up into 3 parts there is plenty of information by using google search. setting aside humans, we're left with the rest of the animal kingdom and the reptillian brain (dogs do not have our powerful neocortex nor do they have the part of the brain that generates great empathy over injustices done)

http://www.crystalinks.com/reptilianbrain.html

But can they reason?
http://www.thedogman.net/DogmanArticlesText.asp?ID=517
http://www.nc.univie.ac.at/index.php?id=14571

sure - but it's so much morelimited than humans.

There's plenty more links - use google search engine and keywords like "Do dogs reason" or "do dogs think"

anyway, take an objective look at cesars book (tho it can be considered biased), it's as good a plave to examine how dogs relate to the world and he's got plenty of reference material for further study in the biliography.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Um, just want to throw this out there....
Dogs are not wolves.

And here's something else:
We are not dogs.

It feels like this is turning into a debate for another thread....?

Yeah, isn't the CM idolatry thread in another area?  Personally, the guy makes me wanna puke.  He is just another "anyone can hang a shingle" type who got lucky.    And, I am astonished that people who claim to know dogs still make the same lame arguments. [:'(]
Instead of spending all your (I mean that in the colloquial sense, lest anyone think I'm getting personal) time trying to get legitimate trainers and behaviorists to give up on this board, perhaps some of the "defenders of the faith" ought to go visit dogwise.com and start buying some additional books to read. [8|]

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

The dog quickly got attached to me, but regardless of that I am very sure that an alpha roll would have gotten me seriously bitten.  I believe that he would have literally panicked and fought for his life. 
 
Whether via fear or anger, a dog that fights the alpha roll is very likely to show strength much greater than most people would expect - sort of like when people lift cars in an emergency.  When you add to that the strong survival instincts of a primitive breed, it is an explosive combination.

With an estate of mine like that then alpha roll is not for you, having that estate of mind would definitely cause the dog to do exactly that

Alpha roll is like judo, it does not matter how big or small the other person is, if you know what you are doing that person will end on the floor regardless of your or his/her strenght

Here is a thread that is 12 pages long about alpha roll, that way we wont turn this thread into that subject only and i'm sure all your questions about it will be answered, if not you can add your comments there so we stay on the subject in both threads []:

http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=245916

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

He is just another "anyone can hang a shingle" type who got lucky.

ouch!
but can they drive the roofing nails straight?


.:.

Personally, the guy makes me wanna puke.

 
Ummmm why don't you tell us how you really, really feel. []
 
I think that somewhere behind him is a brilliant marketing and PR person/company.

I personally feel that the amount of force Cesar uses is not called for.  Alpha rolling especially.

I do believe that the "alpha roll" started because it was decided that the alpha dog in a wolf pack (or even a dog pack) will "roll" another dog who is not respecting the alpha dog's position.  Yes, if you watch a wolf or dog pack you will see the alpha dog reprimand a lower ranking dog who has tried to eat before it's turn, and that dog will end up on it's back with the alpha dog barking in it's face.

But there is a HUGE difference between a human alpha rolling a dog and when you see that specific dog behavior happen between dogs.  When it is a human you are physically forcing the dog into that position.  With dogs the dog in it's back OFFERED that position.

I like to look at training this way:  dog behavior on one end of the line, and human behavior on the other.  No matter how much we try we will NEVER be able to fully "speak dog" just as a dog will never act like a human.  Therefore we must meet somewhere in the middle.  And meeting somewhere in the middle not only means that the human must learn more about dog communication, but it also means that the human must teach the dog how to understand more about human communication.  That is where you will find a good trainer.  And excessive force in most situations is NOT the way to go when it comes to teaching.

I find Cesar's methods to be archaic.  He can explain himself very well, but so can an e-collar trainer, so can a clicker trainer, they all have their "scientific studies" to back up their ways of training and they fully believe it which is WHY they can make themselves sound so believable.

I do like CM sometimes.  I like that he talks about pack order, as that is something that I believe in.  He talks about being strong and assertive.  When he sits and tells the owners the issues with the dog and the issues with the owners and WHY it's all happening, he makes a great deal of sense most of the time.  The problem I find lies in the techniques that he uses.

He can explain himself very well, but so can an e-collar trainer, so can a clicker trainer, they all have their "scientific studies" to back up their ways of training and they fully believe it which is WHY they can make themselves sound so believable

 
Good post. But I wanted to clarify. The studies upon which the alpha wolf model were designed were incorrect from the start and have been de-bunked for quite sometime. An e-collar trainer might know enough about the +P quadrant or -R quadrant of operant conditioning to explain how he uses the remote collar. Clicker training has a history of scientific papers behind it, starting with marker training of dolphins by Karen Pryor back in the 60's.

I like to look at training this way: dog behavior on one end of the line, and human behavior on the other. No matter how much we try we will NEVER be able to fully "speak dog" just as a dog will never act like a human. Therefore we must meet somewhere in the middle.

it's quite easy for a human brain/mind to be able to project itself to many situatiuons and scnearios...
but can a dogs brain/mind achieve this method pr projection to meet at a halfway point...or is the dog going to remain to be, a dog and just learn a few tricks that humans teach them along the way?
what i am asking here is whether or not a dog has the capacity to project their minds like human being can? a dog can instinctively read another persons energy.... maybe the center point is more skewed than a central position.

And meeting somewhere in the middle not only means that the human must learn more about dog communication, but it also means that the human must teach the dog how to understand more about human communication.

i think that dogs can certainly learn commands by many training methods.... and they can certainly read a person's energy far greater than we (i am speaking collectively across the board here) give them credit for but will they be able to understand why humans cry, for example... or meet us halfway to understand sorta why we might cry for things that they simply can not comprehend? they may be able to read our distress (an energy characteristic we bleed off) but won't be able to pin down the cause because they simply do not have that capacity within their brain structure.

much neo-cortex required.

I find Cesar's methods to be archaic. He can explain himself very well, but so can an e-collar trainer, so can a clicker trainer, they all have their "scientific studies" to back up their ways of training and they fully believe it which is WHY they can make themselves sound so believable.

yes, but remember, the dog's brain is archaic.... well, more like reptillian it's been around for a long long time because it simply works good enough for the dog population to survive. they don't need all these gadgets that wee seem to be so reliant on (which stems from having the brain structural ability to make all these fancy tools in the first place)..... now what i am saying, use what works for you, whether it be clickers, e-collars, or energy, or a combination thereof.... the dog doesn't care. it lives in the moment.

the dog's brain is archaic.... well, more like reptillian it's been around for a long long time because it simply works good enough for the dog population to survive

What???????????  [sm=smack.gif]  Could we have some citations for that research? [sm=abducted.gif]
Now dogs are related to alligators?  [8D]

I got your proof right here:

Regarding the original question about Jean Donaldson or Cesar Millan and who is "right"...I don't think the average dog owner may be aware of how deeply divided the world of dog "training" is.
 
There is an entire organization of "legitimate" canine professionals who do support Cesar and the work he does. They are the International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP):
 
[linkhttp://www.dogpro.org/]www.dogpro.org/[/link]
 
I also recommend reading through some of Roger Hild's (founding member of the Canadian Association of Professional Pet Dog Trainers & IACP member) "Articles of Interest" on his site to understand some of the divisions and misinformation many dog owners come up against:
 
[linkhttp://www.tsurodogtraining.com/]http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/[/link]
 
For a more detailed discussion regarding the often misunderstood, misinterpreted, and loosely thrown about term "alpha roll", here is a more recent discussion from the CM area:
 
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=322431]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=322431[/link]