Are We Too Wrapped Up in Being Alpha?

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ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Alpha dogs don't provide for the needs of their subordinates. Alpha dogs provide for their own needs, and let the subordinates squabble for the scraps.

In all the scientific, indigenous, anecdotal, observational, theoretical, historical, contemporary, western, non-western, behavioral, bilogical, etc. texts I have read, that is a statement that I have never come across. Where does that thesis come from?

Didn't you see the show with the wolf guy on NGC?  The leader ate the organ meat, the others were grrrr'ing at each other over the scraps.  Since "alpha" ideas usually come from wolf pack theory, perhaps that's what mudpuppy is referring to.  I don't think that the point was to dismiss the fact that we must meet some of our dogs' needs, since they do gotta go P when we get home.

Everything else is just a word dance, IMO.

Well, it's a little more than that, since the use of certain words tends to create different responses toward dogs by humans.  If I tell you to be the dog's "alpha", do you think that creates a different vision than if I tell you to be his "benevolent leader"?  If I say "correct that dog" is it different than if I say "redirect the dog"?  Words are powerful, and can determine whether you waltz or watusi.

If I tell you to be the dog's "alpha", do you think that creates a different vision than if I tell you to be his "benevolent leader"?  If I say "correct that dog" is it different than if I say "redirect the dog"? 

 
See, I don't see a difference as everything I've read about alpha dogs and pack leaders are that they are benevolent.  If you are unpredictable and excessively harsh you're not going to be alpha or maintain your alpha status. 
 
On another note, I don't thing correcting a dog has to be cruel or abusive.  If Willow is acting like a fool I definately let her know calmly without raising my voice that I don't like whatever she's doing.  And, then depending, I might redirect her to something else.  Depends on the situation. Sometimes I might redirect without correcting her at all.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Everything else is just a word dance, IMO.

Well, it's a little more than that, since the use of certain words tends to create different responses toward dogs by humans.  If I tell you to be the dog's "alpha", do you think that creates a different vision than if I tell you to be his "benevolent leader"?  If I say "correct that dog" is it different than if I say "redirect the dog"?  Words are powerful, and can determine whether you waltz or watusi.

 
True. Words are also used to conjure up emotional images and manipulate. Any marketing strategist could tell you that. This is why I try to stick to the scientific applications and use them in the proper context.
 
Speaking of dancing...even in couples dancing, one must lead in order for the pair to move in harmony. []

ORIGINAL: Angelique
Speaking of dancing...even in couples dancing, one must lead in order for the pair to move in harmony. []

OOoooOOOH! There's a lovely analogy! I took ballroom dance classes and learned that if the man actually tries to "steer" lady, he actually squashes her participation, and he'll soon get a reputation as a boor to dance with! Like any good leader, the man makes space for the woman to give her energy to contribute to the dance. And she, in turn, gives good followership, making herself receptive to his cues, so they glide together!

It's relatied to this:

ORIGINAL: willowchow
See, I don't see a difference as everything I've read about alpha dogs and pack leaders are that they are benevolent. If you are unpredictable and excessively harsh you're not going to be alpha or maintain your alpha status.

Don't stop now.  I'm loving this thread.  I wish more threads on contraversial topics were like this.  I now have so much food for thought my brain has indigestion.

Words are also used to conjure up emotional images and manipulate

 
A true statement!
 
And what do words mean to the dog?  Nothing.
 
Your actions, your ability to understand, and work along with your dog and lead when necessary, teach when necessary, prevent problems, and perpetuate all of the good mechanics of a good to best relationship...is what matters.
 
Calling the self an Alpha just is overkill.  The word in of itself is not the best word to describe what is truly far more important and complex in the day to day life of human and dog that live together.
 
The word Alpha is not a term seen as benevolent.  It is not a pleasant thought to dance that dance with an Alpha male or female for that matter!    It is a term that relates to the wild, not humans and dogs....
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

quote:

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Alpha dogs don't provide for the needs of their subordinates. Alpha dogs provide for their own needs, and let the subordinates squabble for the scraps.


In all the scientific, indigenous, anecdotal, observational, theoretical, historical, contemporary, western, non-western, behavioral, bilogical, etc. texts I have read, that is a statement that I have never come across. Where does that thesis come from?


Didn't you see the show with the wolf guy on NGC? The leader ate the organ meat, the others were grrrr'ing at each other over the scraps. Since "alpha" ideas usually come from wolf pack theory, perhaps that's what mudpuppy is referring to. I don't think that the point was to dismiss the fact that we must meet some of our dogs' needs, since they do gotta go P when we get home.

 
you guys need to spend more time actually WATCHING dogs and less time arguing. The alpha dog gets first dibs on the resources. The alpha dog doesn't feed, care for, or protect the beta and omega dogs. The alpha graciously lets them eat her scraps. If there isn't enough food, the omega dogs will be forced to starve to death. The only reason they even form packs in the first place is cooperate in pulling down large prey animals, not so the omega dogs can be gently cared for by some all-loving benevolent alpha dog.
 
I'm not an alpha dog and refuse to act like one or pretend that I do.

Well said, Mudpuppy.

Wolves and some other canids (but by no means all) form packs as a means to an end. It is not an end in and of itself. In the wild, pack behavior carries some survival advantages, but in niches in which it isn't needed or would be deterimental to survival, even wolf species stop packing. Feral dogs pack when it suits them, and the packs dissolve when that suits them. In some niches, they will have to remain in packs to survive. In others, staying semi-solitary brings the best advantages. It's wholly conditional. And what that all tells me is that there is no hard-wiring for this pack rank-ordering in domestic dogs. Dogs are social, which is why we get alon with them so well--we are highly social animals as well. They will pack if forced and have the social skills to understand what that means. But it isn't a necessity for their happiness or stability.

And as MP said, what I do with my dogs bears really very little resemblance to what a wolf alpha does with the rest of the pack. And my dogs aren't wolves anyway, and I'm not a wolf either. Pack order in wolves is almost exclusively related to mating and to food--in every other way the pack members do as they please for the most part. Clearly mating has nothing to do with my relationship with my dogs, and I don't eat the same food as my dogs, we don't catch it and kill it together, and we don't tuck in to the same carcass together.

ORIGINAL: dogslife

Our position is fixed. 

 
Tell that to the posters coming here because their dogs are growling at them (let alone biting)
 
Who in this forum has a dog without having fun? not me for sure, i tried to be the alpha, more for my dog than for me, why? that way my dog feels protected by me, that way my dog does not feel stressed on the street if she thinks something is wrong, thats why my dog is not leash aggressive because she looks at me first to see how do i react, thats why my dog is not posesive because she knows that she can borrow dog toys from me
 
Dogs need leaders, if they dont have one they will find one or step up to the plate for the "preservation of the pack", an alpha does not need to be a dog, in some houses the cat is the alpha, i want my dog to see me as leader because she chooses to do so, not because i'm the only one who can open the fridge [] (thats not a leader)

Tell that to the posters coming here because their dogs are growling at them (let alone biting)

 
Calling yourself an Alpha and dealing with a situation as in the  above scenario is way more  involved. 
 
People with dogs that are badly behaved probably have the same difficulties in dealing with other problems that they have. Or they have an adopted animal with prior history. It is not anything to do with being an Alpha animal.  It has to do with guidlines and learning how to communicate and understanding what are the animals particular needs in order to adjust  and help to build better behaviors.
 
Alpha is a plug term which is not going to provide answers to the people with  distressed dog situations.  No one is saying at all to just throw away leadership skills.   

ORIGINAL: dogslife

Tell that to the posters coming here because their dogs are growling at them (let alone biting)

Calling yourself an Alpha and dealing with a situation as in the  above scenario is way more  involved. 

People with dogs that are badly behaved probably have the same difficulties in dealing with other problems that they have. Or they have an adopted animal with prior history. It is not anything to do with being an Alpha animal.  It has to do with guidlines and learning how to communicate and understanding what are the animals particular needs in order to adjust  and help to build better behaviors.

Alpha is a plug term which is not going to provide answers to the people with  distressed dog situations.  No one is saying at all to just throw away leadership skills.   

 
But that shows that your position is not automaticlly the leader one if you are the owner

"your position is not automaticlly the leader one if you are the owner "

When you bring home your dog, you are automatically responsible for him.  When you shrug off your responsibities, then you are at fault for whatever bad relationship you have going with your dog.
 
What is natural to some people is not to others and abnormal behaviors require a lot more effort to fix.
 
 
 
 
 

If we are talking about the wolf model, I think the concept of alpha (being a breeding pair) and pack, is more about preservation of the species.

Alpha  is all about breeding rights. Pack is really just about being a part of a large group in order to bring down bigger game.  Both being about preservation of the species because packs can change members.

Our dogs don't have to worry about any of these things. So there is a possibility that neither alpha nor pack applies.

Dogs need leaders, if they dont have one they will find one or step up to the plate for the "preservation of the pack",