Are We Too Wrapped Up in Being Alpha?

not me for sure, i tried to be the alpha, more for my dog than for me, why? that way my dog feels protected by me, that way my dog does not feel stressed on the street if she thinks something is wrong, thats why my dog is not leash aggressive because she looks at me first to see how do i react, thats why my dog is not posesive because she knows that she can borrow dog toys from me

Dogs need leaders, if they dont have one they will find one or step up to the plate for the "preservation of the pack",

 
how many dogs have you observed for long periods of time? the alpha dog doesn't do any of these things-- sure doesn't try to protect or even control the other dogs as long as they don't try to take the alpha's food. Dogs don't really care about the "preservation of the pack"-- they happily form and re-form various social structures depending upon who is present and the circumstances. Maybe if there was a litter of pups to protect they might act cooperatively to protect them, I don't know. The few times I've been near litters of young pups with both parents present only the mother seemed to exhibit any kind of protective instincts.
Nor have I ever observed dogs exhibiting some kind of desire for "leaders" except in group hunting situations.  Once watched a random group of dogs (assorted households happening to meet at an off leash dog park) suddenly and spontaneously form into an incredibly complex and cooperative hunting pack when some really stupid deer wandering into the area.
 
Yes, dogs do need human "leaders" because they don't naturally understand how to behave in human society. But that has nothing to do with dog packs or alphas or dominance or any kind of natural dog behavior.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Dogs don't really care about the "preservation of the pack"

 
Yeap i think they are selfish little bastards then

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Dogs don't really care about the "preservation of the pack"

Yeap i think they are selfish little bastards then

Dogs are social animals, but it seems to me that their overriding concern might be whether they are a member of the group, and where their place is, not whether the whole group survives as a pack.  If it doesn't, their overriding concern would be to find another group to take them in.  That's why they adapt to multiple homes - failure to find a social group means death.  But, as we see, it doesn't have to be a pack of dogs, it can be a pack of humans and the dogs still do fine for the most part.

Dogs are social animals, but it seems to me that their overriding concern might be whether they are a member of the group, and where their place is, not whether the whole group survives as a pack.

Social parasites! [8|] []

After some analysis, I've cracked the code! Me so smart! This thread is calling out the civilized vs. the savage. Hmmm, that's somewhat amusing.

Some posts have me fantasizing all manners of large game stalking the streets of downtown LA at night, prompting stray dogs to form packs to fell them. [8|]

Others have me imagining Spartan dog households with morally superior beings who demostrate a horror of the jungle via perfunctory competency exams.

I wonder what some posters think when others ridicule them for being an inquisitive and mimetic primate, examining models of human-animal relationships by .... erm, looking at both human behavior and animal behavior. []

In the end, even though we are not canids, I believe we are all doing a good job of demonstrating how a directionless pack behaves ... we're all foraging for ourselves, and snapping scraps out of each other's mouths. Which just goes to show ya: you can take the beast out of the jungle, but you can never take the jungle out of the beast! []

Maybe I'm missing something here, but as I recall, I started this thread and the topic isn't:

the civilized vs. the savage

.
[sm=abducted.gif]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Maybe I'm missing something here, but as I recall, I started this thread and the topic isn't:

the civilized vs. the savage

.

 
Miauuuuuu catfight []
 

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

I wonder what some posters think when others ridicule them for being an inquisitive and mimetic primate, examining models of human-animal relationships by .... erm, looking at both human behavior and animal behavior. []
 

 
Well, the topic is about "Are we too wrapped up in being alpha" not "are our dogs too wrapped up in being alpha". []

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
 
you can take the beast out of the jungle, but you can never take the jungle out of the beast! []

 
Not completely. Dogs or humans, it's all still in there in varying degrees.
 
 [sm=haha.gif] IMHO

Very good point.  In all probabilities, dogs may not give a rats a$$ about who is alpha.

Well, the topic is about "Are we too wrapped up in being alpha" not "are our dogs too wrapped up in being alpha". []

For the people who do believe it is important to be "ALPHA" I have a question (someone shout at me if your think its too far removed from the OP and I'll start a new thread but it seem to fit here).  My question is:  Simply put, a pack in the wild consists of the "alpha pair" and a group of "followers".  Often the alpha pair are the parents, in all cases the alpha pair have sole breeding rights.  So how does this translate to breeders households?  Does it not confuse the dog to be "allowed to breed"?  Does that give him/her the idea that he is now the "alpha" in your house?

Chuffy, did you just have a baby?  Wonderful!  I really can barely see what is written underneath that pic.  I need glasses I guess.  But anyway, I do remember my babies, the human ones and it is amazing how things change with a baby in the house.
 
Our responsibilities are to take care of the baby.  When baby cries, he/she needs to be cared for...cuddled, diaper change, feeding time, burping etc.  I often think of the baby as kind of the "boss", lol, because you are needed so much, and your care is actually orchestrated by that little tiny infant.  The cry of a new born pulls at my heart strings.  I just love the little faces with brand new skin all tightened up with that cry, which is naturally hard to ignore.  And do you think it was natures intent?  Why babies are so irresistable to older folks...well most I think anyways...
 
So, since the baby kind of has everyone wrapped around his little teeny fingers, Is he an Alpha?  LOL.... 
 
It is just not an appropriate word. 

I think the word "alpha" has been turned into a politically correct term.

Here is what we do know and what is proven fact.
It came from the wolf model.
Alpha is a pair, one female, one male, that has breeding rights.

This lacks all logic.  It cannot come  from the wolf model and not have breeding involved.  That is cherry picking.

Ok, how about this.  You have a sled dog team.  You have an Alpha, lead dog.  What is the human's title? 
 
[]

Director maybe? Team captain? 

Also, the alpha lead dog implies one dog...and pulling involved.  Not a pair that has sole breeding rights.

Two different things...breeding vs. pulling.  One dog versus two dogs.

So, the way I see it, there cannot be such a thing as an alpha lead dog on sled.  Lead dog on sled, yes.

ORIGINAL: dogslife

Ok, how about this.  You have a sled dog team.  You have an Alpha, lead dog.  What is the human's title? 

[]

ORIGINAL: JM

Very good point.  In all probabilities, dogs may not give a rats a$$ about who is alpha.

Well, the topic is about "Are we too wrapped up in being alpha" not "are our dogs too wrapped up in being alpha". []

 
I actually think with most dogs this is true. Unless you are dealing with a dog who has an extremely dominant personality (by birth), most dogs are happy to be lead.
 
Most dogs aren't looking to lead the household and only end up in the "dominant" (I don't usually use the word alpha) position by default. It's the owner's lack of leadership and the owner's behavior that hands the dog this position on a silver platter.
 
Do some people go to far the other way? Yes. This can actually have the opposite effect of establishing leadership and has "alpha wanna be" written all over it. Volitile and/or overly aggressive, angry, or frustrated behavior towards the dog does not say "leadership".
 
I find many eople flip-flop back and forth between acting like leaders and then acting like followers, often without even realising it. This must look like rather unstable behavior from the dog's point of view.