Dog Community

Are We Too Wrapped Up in Being Alpha?

Posted : 4/27/2007 6:43:41 PM

I hope that Kim MacMillan will forgive me moving her entire post from a thread on the clicker training section. I thought that her post was very thought-provoking and pretty accurate, especially the part about humans being so focused on "leadership". Do you think humans spend way too much time trying to force the dogs to respect us, whatever that means, and not enough time setting them up for success, learning what motivates them and using it to our advantage, or just plain having fun with them?

Kim_MacMillan
I suppose you would call me a good natural leader for my dogs. But until I started reading official literature about living with dogs, I never even thought of it as anything to do with leadership, nor do I consider leadership in myself in a day-to-day environment. And I've always had success with dogs in my life. The thing is, people get so wrapped up in having to "be the leader" that they forget a lot about just enjoying life with their dogs, and they end up trying to pull off these nifty "rules" in order for the dog to "respect" them. When in reality, most people are pretty good leaders without even thinking about it, and without adding in any additional lingo. The only time "leadership" issues arise, is when people have problems with their dogs, and often they are seen as not being the 'leader' when the dog has a behaviour problem. I personally think it's a highly over-used term, and in fact it's just easy (even for me) to discuss leadership. Instead of saying "Dogs do what works - if you control the environment, and take the time to teach your dog what you want it to do, and reward it for doing so, it will do it. If you teach your dog that certain behaviours have certain outcomes, your dog will live happily with you. If you are kind to your dog, and do no harm to it, you'll develop a strong trust in one another and life will be much better for both of you", most people find it easier to say "You just need to become a better leader!".

I don't necessarily equate clicker training and leadership (if we're discussing leadership). Why? Because clicker training works with all species. I can train a wolf to give me a high five, a dolphin to swim through a hoop, a dog to walk nicely on lead, and a betta fish to target a stick. They are all performing behaviours. It has nothing to do with leadership. I'm sure that the lion I trained to lick my hand for a reward would as soon eat my arm for supper. Clicker training doesn't mean we've formed a strong relationship necessarily, but that the animal learned that certain behaviours reap rewards. You can train rats via a clicker without the rat even ever seeing you, so it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the relationship you hold with that animal.

However, in terms of building a relationship, using a clicker to train is a GREAT way to help do that positively. Because clicker training, is by nature, composed of:
1) Managing the environment and preventing the dog from doing wrong.
2) Showing the dog what is right.
3) Ignoring what is wrong.
4) Rewarding the dog for doing right.
5) Removing reward for doing wrong.
Basically, clicker training in the sense of a person who believes in that method, naturally sets up the environment for animals so that they can succeed, and success built upon reward is also a very huge trust builder. Between feeding directly from a person (versus a bowl), and the dog being able to do things right and be rewarded for it (dogs seek pleasure), while at the same time not being worried about being wrong (from positive punishment), etc, it naturally builds a bond between dog and person. And after all, leadership, in its most basic sense, thrives on trust between parties. If your dog doesn't trust you, then you have no hope of being a good leader.

Basically, though, my dogs do what works, and I do what works with my guys. My dogs realize that doing as I ask, gets them what they want. So regardless of how they actually view me as a "leader" (heck, they could all be mocking me for being one of those treat-slinging weenies behind my back, saying "sucker, we have HER trained";), when it comes down to real life, I look at our relationship and the strength in it. My dogs love to snuggle with me, they do as I ask, I do as they ask (if it's safe to do so), they are completely comfortable in my presence, and they love spending time with me as much as I do with them. My dogs have full, complete trust in me, and in situations in which we are interacting. Our relationship is great. If I'm a "leader", then great. If I'm a treat-slinging weenie, that's great too.

As long as life is amiable, I don't care how they view me.

I must say that I consider myself a natural leader to my dogs, too, so much so that it seems pretty effortless. I know that some people have more trouble, but I think that some also are just miscommunicating with the dogs, and a slight uptick in training knowledge would remove some of that "language barrier" such that leadership would not be such an issue. I mean, if your dog doesn't understand what you want, he can hardly be deemed "dominant" or "stubborn" for not doing it, right? What do you guys think?

dobedvm

Posted : 4/27/2007 7:24:43 PM

spiritdogs - totally OT, but you work with the owner of the rottie, Cora?
Do you know a girl that has the greyhound, wally (and two other dogs?)

nfowler

Posted : 4/27/2007 7:27:36 PM

Yes. To answer your question, yes. I'm different than most people, though. I'm tired and bored to death with the Alpha talk.

Xerxes

Posted : 4/27/2007 7:46:07 PM

When I was a youngster, I had a great relationship with my GSD. I didn't have to teach "heel" as he did it naturally, his recall was so amazing I could play hide and seek with him in the woods and once I'd call he'd come find me. He was an amazing dog and viewed me as a friend, at least but most probably a "senior" friend. At that time I didn't know anything about dog psychology, about alpha or dominant behavior; I just had a great time with my dog.

Fast forward to the Akita: Big dog, and I had learned all the things that dominance theory teaches and I had them in practice: But I never had to lay a hand on him, nor roll him. He rolled himself for me. I did have "stare downs" with him and growling contests-but only when he showed me signs of "getting dominant." He would listen to me above everyone else and all I'd have to do was look his way and growl at him. I had a good time with him as well.

Now I've got this skinny little smart dog that started talking back at 14 weeks when he didn't want to "stay." A dog that can thwart any effort to contain him, and can outsmart most people I know. But he's also a stubborn hound with a pretty soft emotional state. He learns things once and remembers them. He gets bored more quickly than an ADD or ADHD child does. His breed has been established for a very long time, they are independent thinkers and don't want to be told expressly what to do-they'd rather you suggest it to them and allow them to do it in their own way.   I encourage and try to foster this independent thought and his creativity.

So how do I view our relationship? According to the vet, my landlord and the county, I'm his owner. According to me I'm his senior partner and hopefully that goes for how he views me. I don't worry about him trying to dominate me with disruptive or undesireable behaviors: that's just him being spontaneous. He knows that, even though he's figured out how to move a 30lb container of cat litter, and remove the lockable lid on the dog food bin, I'm in control of the food.   There are times when I have to act a bit more forcefully-like when he ran into the bedroom swinging a 12inch butcher knife around like a buzzsaw.

But for the most part all I want is for my dog to behave and have a happy life.   I don't feel the need to impress him with my "alpha"-ness.    I don't think it would work too well anyways, from what I've seen PHs in a pack have more of a matriarch than an alpha male. And what she says with a posture or a simple look carries more weight than I could.

DPU

Posted : 4/27/2007 8:00:32 PM

I was very impressed with the post and I wonder why when I say some of the same thing I get criticized. I have been very successful with dogs that come to my home where I have absolutely, zilch, nada, no background or history. Working with different dogs that have different issues makes Clicker sometimes not so easy. That's the first thing that came to mind when reading the post. The post describes an ideal and is always good to have the right dog to be in the ideal situation. Managing the environment and preventing the dog from doing wrong implies knowledge that the environment is managed but the dog has to do wrong in order for you to set up the environment. Showing the dog what is right means the dog has done the wrong thing so the dog learns what is right but not the consequences for the wrong. Ignoring what is wrong does not take into consideration that the wrong has to occur a few times and thus probably reinforced thus prolonging the wrong. Rewarding the dog for doing right makes the dog sad when it thinks the dog is doing right and it is good behavior but not the right one. Removing the reward for doing wrong is negative and causes the dog distress.

I do clicker training but I think the human-dog relationship has to exist before the training start. Ron2 is proving that to me and so is my experiences with the fosters. He as established his 'alpha' status and now reaping the benefits of kindess in their 'old' age.

mrv

Posted : 4/28/2007 7:03:10 AM

I think there is an issue with "alpha" that has more to do with human nature. Many of the things Kim wrote apply to all walks of life, not just dog training. I will admit it, I am reinforced by "power". I like getting my own way. At one time, I used methods of intimidation to get that. Problem is, it works. I ended up with an epifany during my training in graduate school which was thoroughly emersed in applied behavior analysis. The feeling of control, the ability to get what you want, when you want it, is very addicting. Until you see there are other more effective means, and experience those results, change will be difficult.

I run into teachers over time (and they are few and far between) who naturally attend to appropriate behavior. I see teachers all the time who continually repeat a behavior strategy usually perceived as negative by the general public, despite the fact it does not change the student's behavior. I have to admit, I fall back into intimidation myself sometimes; with people and dogs. I dont like it and it is now uncomfortable to me. I am beginning to believe the temperment differences in people predispose them to a method or approach to teaching and changing behavior. Their reinforcement history will impact which methods become the defaults and which people will be able to make conscious change.

Stacita

Posted : 4/28/2007 8:01:20 AM

I don't think it is necessary to pretend to be "Alpha". I've never seen any evidence that makes me believe my dogs think I'm a dog. That, to me, would be like saying they don't know the difference between a dog and a cat. I think there's a natural level where humans control resources that dogs want, whether it be food, toys, gates, etc. I don't feel my dogs need to walk behind me on a walk. They know they aren't free to do just anything, because there's a leash attached and they've learned that they don't get to go forward if they pull full steam ahead.

Mine tend to have different motivators, but generally for them good behavior earns a reward and eventually becomes an ingrained habit. For example, we praised, treated, played with, etc. Tasha as a reward for potty training. It is such a habit now, that she'd no more go to the bathroom on the living room floor than you or I would. She'll wake us from a deep sleep first.

nfowler

Posted : 4/28/2007 1:08:47 PM

I agree with the posts here and especially MRV. It takes a lot to change our own "hardwired" tendencies. I'm not an in-your-face kind of person, except with DPU (just kidding!) and that yanking and yelling that I learned to do with Ellie never sat right with me. Maybe it would have been effective if it had sat right with me, and maybe not. (I tend to think not because positive training makes so much sense to her and for her.)

I think there are people who lean toward one type of training. Me? I've never liked the alpha/beta/wolf pack idea for my dogs. It's partly because I've heard so many versions of it all that I am easily bored and irritated with the notion and partly because half my family believes it and believes that being "alpha" means doing whatever you want (when a dog is the alpha to other dogs, that is).

Not for me thanks.

DPU

Posted : 4/28/2007 1:51:12 PM

ORIGINAL: mrv

I think there is an issue with "alpha" that has more to do with human nature. Many of the things Kim wrote apply to all walks of life, not just dog training. I will admit it, I am reinforced by "power". I like getting my own way. At one time, I used methods of intimidation to get that. Problem is, it works. I ended up with an epifany during my training in graduate school which was thoroughly emersed in applied behavior analysis. The feeling of control, the ability to get what you want, when you want it, is very addicting. Until you see there are other more effective means, and experience those results, change will be difficult....

Being Alpha or the all-knowing of what is right from wrong is part of every day life. Being Alpha means stature and success. No human can deny that they don#%92t feel “macho” over other people or over their animals. Just because they feel it doesn#%92t mean their actions are macho. I don#%92t force and I don#%92t yank and yell. I know how to get to be the Alpha and mostly because I control the resources which includes play. I also know the dogs can take me anytime they want so it is wise of me not to push it my authority.

With success there is a cost. At times it is hard for me to see a structure in my pack. With Sassy, a former foster it was very clear to me she was Alpha and took that role when a new dog would enter the pack. She spent many a lonely time on the sidelines making sure play was appropriate. To discipline, she would herd, nip at the heels, make a fuss, snitch, take names, whatever. In time she gave it up in favor of the group#%92s fun and games. With me it is the same. I can play frisby or throw the ball because I control that resource. But when I play tug-o-war and get down on the ground, a couple of my dogs get very upset. So there is not only a human nature factor but also there is a need and an expectation that goes along with filling the need.

willowchow

Posted : 4/28/2007 3:11:12 PM

I think I was extremely wrapped up in being alpha until I actually became alpha. Then I stopped thinking much about it.

Anonymous

Posted : 4/28/2007 7:01:14 PM

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Ratsicles

Posted : 4/28/2007 7:37:36 PM

In a word, yes. I never worry about being alpha, and there are no dominance struggles going on between me and my dogs. They respect me as leader, and that's it. I don't do ANY of the things I hear recomended to make yourself "alpha" in your dog's eyes, and they still respect me fully. I see myself as an equal with my dogs- I am simply a leader among equals.[

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willowchow

Posted : 4/29/2007 1:53:11 AM

See, we've had this discussion before.

I feel as though people who have dogs who never challenge them and are naturally followers think that people get too "wrapped up" in being alpha.

But, if you have a dog who is constantly challenging yes, you are going to be thinking about it a lot more. And, with good reason.

Chuffy

Posted : 4/29/2007 3:12:39 AM

If I'm a "leader", then great. If I'm a treat-slinging weenie, that's great too.

I think this has got to be the best phrase I've seen on this board and I want it for my signature!

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/29/2007 6:00:22 AM

ORIGINAL: dobedvm

spiritdogs - totally OT, but you work with the owner of the rottie, Cora?
Do you know a girl that has the greyhound, wally (and two other dogs?)

Yes, I work with Cora's mom. I do know who you are talking about - Wally, Mike, and Athena's mom. But, I have only met her a couple of times. PM me, so we don't get OT any more than we already are. [

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