Dog Community

J M

Posted : 4/30/2007 11:55:16 AM

Well to be truthful (and I am sure that is was MRV that hipped me to this) I regained control of my dog...not by controlling him, but by teaching him self control.

I was always pretty much under the assumption that folks who made the dog hold sit stays for this or that were just control freaks....so I never really did that sort of thing. But then when I re-focused (MRV again) it became about me teaching/helping the dog regain self control.

I honestly do not think it had anything to do with alpha/leadership/dominance. And Zeus is, and has always been, a very very very confident, independent, strong willed dog.

Well, he still is all of that...but he is now all of that with some strong self control going on.

dogslife

Posted : 4/30/2007 12:07:44 PM

Yes, it is more about teaching, leading in a more involved way, not controlling. But you don't have to be standing guard all the time "being Alpha". Also, it is a given that the dog depends upon us to care for (as well as teach/train) them.

We are naturally not subserviant to the dog. But I sure as heck don't behave as though the dogs are subservient to us, the human family. We all have our place in the family. But the adult humans have the responsibility to keep things in a sort of homeostasis.

Dogs are just dogs. We like them that way. And I do agree that the instant gratification issue can be a real hindrance to having a gratifying relationship with the dogs. It is just not natural.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/30/2007 12:55:20 PM

It's easy to see how people get drawn into "the dark side". You've worked hard all day, you come home and need to relax, and your dog starts poking you with his nose and barking and won't stop. What is easier-- Stare off into space and ignore the dog until he does something good that you can reward by taking the dog out for a walk? or stand up and tower over the dog and "dominant" it (scare) the dog into going away and leaving you alone?

And people often mis-interpret what is happening. Making a dog follow silly rules like waiting to go through doorways after you go through often has an amazing overall positive effect on doggy behavior--not because you have "taken dominance" over the dog, but because you have taught the dog to exert control over himself.

DPU

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:01:54 PM

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

It's easy to see how people get drawn into "the dark side". You've worked hard all day, you come home and need to relax, and your dog starts poking you with his nose and barking and won't stop. What is easier-- Stare off into space and ignore the dog until he does something good that you can reward by taking the dog out for a walk? or stand up and tower over the dog and "dominant" it (scare) the dog into going away and leaving you alone?

What world do you live in? I come home and my chores begin. As Alpha, I have to provide the dog its need. And when I come home we only know DOG GOTTA P.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:12:55 PM

As Alpha, I have to provide the dog its need.

Alpha dogs don't provide for the needs of their subordinates. Alpha dogs provide for their own needs, and let the subordinates squabble for the scraps.

I was speaking generally, DPU. Lots of folks just want to sit and watch TV when they come home. My first move on arriving home after work is to take the dogs for a good hard run.

J M

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:22:23 PM

With some dogs, I think there is a difference between demanding obediance (which leads to self control) and encouraging self control.

Hence the danger aspect of alpha/dominance theory.. Which I feel is not addressed enough...if ever.

Demanding anything out of my dog is not going to happen. A few hard yanks on a choke chain and you might find missing pieces of your neck in his mouth.

If he would lose a sit stay due to a squack (aka squirrel)or something, I would just laugh and tell him what a freaking genius he was, and hey! how about we try that again?

but because you have taught the dog to exert control over himself.

Ixas_girl

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:41:28 PM

ORIGINAL: JM
I regained control of my dog...not by controlling him, but by teaching him self control.

I was always pretty much under the assumption that folks who made the dog hold sit stays for this or that were just control freaks....so I never really did that sort of thing. But then when I re-focused (MRV again) it became about me teaching/helping the dog regain self control.

Beautiful!

Yep, that's the basis of what constitues leadership for me: nurturing a healthy, supportive, productive space that attracts others to cultivate the best in themselves. Oftentimes, setting boundaries and limitations is part of creating a safe space, as is providing individuals opportunities to fail constructively.

Micromanager control freaks don't sit at the head of any table, except their own.

DPU

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:44:34 PM

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

... Lots of folks just want to sit and watch TV when they come home....

I fail to see the point of thread if Alpha/Leadership doesn't include meeting the dog's needs.

With respect because I know you know more about dogs than me and that is an accurate and precise statement, but how often are you present at the precise moment when folks arrive home?

Ixas_girl

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:46:11 PM

Oh, and let's remember that "alpha" isn't a "style" or a self imposed demeanor ... it's a pack position and is evidenced by the interrelations between pack memebers. It is also not generally a permanent position, it's a status that floats as needed by circumstance.

J M

Posted : 4/30/2007 1:50:27 PM

This is such a good point..and one I have recently realized. I have always wondered why Zeus thinks the SO is a god (big G even).

He doesn't worry about Zeus,....so in Zeus' brain (evidently) all is right in the world.

The SO will throw Zeus in the front of his truck, strap in him and take off like a wild man. And Zeus is totally happy with all of this. Tongue lolling out the window, drool running down the side of the truck.

Happy happy, I tell ya.

So, I tell the SO...you can't do that anymore, he is almost 13. His bones and joints are not as agile. He couldn't stand falling out of his support. He would be injured

And the SO eyes get all big..and like oh maw gawd...I never thought of that. So now he slows down around corners and all the other safety stuff...

But the point is....(I think) He doesn't worry about Zeus, so in Zeus' brain (evidently)

all is right in the world..... I have nothing to worry about.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Alpha dogs provide for their own needs,

Ixas_girl

Posted : 4/30/2007 2:01:28 PM

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Alpha dogs don't provide for the needs of their subordinates. Alpha dogs provide for their own needs, and let the subordinates squabble for the scraps.

In all the scientific, indigenous, anecdotal, observational, theoretical, historical, contemporary, western, non-western, behavioral, bilogical, etc. texts I have read, that is a statement that I have never come across. Where does that thesis come from?

dogslife

Posted : 4/30/2007 2:10:20 PM

Are we too wrapped up in being Alpha? yes.

Alpha refers to the dog family. We are humans...We are the teachers and the care takers of the dog. Not an alpha. Our position is fixed.

The trouble with terminology like this is that it connotes something that is really unclear. The trouble with it is that if you take this alpha thing to be a big part of your ego, then it can be deletarious to the relationship that you could be having with your dog.

A dog is not needing a ego Alpha, but a well adjusted owner that knows how to take care of a dog, train a dog. Love the dog.

J M

Posted : 4/30/2007 2:16:17 PM

My understanding is that the true term of "alpha" is one male, one female who does the breeding.

Most "packs" have a dominant male (under the true alpha, which is a pair) who does the enforcing (fighting, defending terroritory and such).

Ack! Someone step in if I am wrong.

This whole Alpha thing is supposedly based on the wolf model. Which is a bit out of date I think. Because at one time, a dominant male (the scrapper) was figured to be the alpha...but now we now know that is not so.

TinaK

Posted : 4/30/2007 3:14:35 PM

What does "being alpha" entail in the eyes of the author of the thread? Once I'll have a clear idea of what it means, I'll be able to answer the question of whether or not we are too rapped up about it. Otherwise, it's just an exercise in semantics. (I only know what it means to me.)

Sounds like the word Leader is destined for the same sad ending as the old word "dominant", it's becoming an 'L' word. Soon, careful, politically-correct people will switch that term to Guide to escape old connotations. I'll apply my own leader-esk type meaning to it, scare some people off, and it'll soon become a "G" word too.

Fine, don't be Alpha, don't be a Leader, just be the kind of Owner you feel you should be. I hope it won't get to: "Owner is just an O word to me."

[:@]

Angelique

Posted : 4/30/2007 3:44:48 PM

ORIGINAL: TinaK

What does "being alpha" entail in the eyes of the author of the thread? Once I'll have a clear idea of what it means, I'll be able to answer the question of whether or not we are too rapped up about it. Otherwise, it's just an exercise in semantics. (I only know what it means to me.)

Sounds like the word Leader is destined for the same sad ending as the old word "dominant", it's becoming an 'L' word. Soon, careful, politically-correct people will switch that term to Guide to escape old connotations. I'll apply my own leader-esk type meaning to it, scare some people off, and it'll soon become a "G" word too.

Fine, don't be Alpha, don't be a Leader, just be the kind of Owner you feel you should be. I hope it won't get to: "Owner is just an O word to me."

[:@]

It already has become the "O" word. The politically correct terms are "dog parent" or "guardian". [8D]

That's why I tend to stick to scientific observation, documentation,

apers, studies, and documentaries conducted by scientists doing research on social mammal group dynamics in the field, for the correct use of the terminologies.

There are no politically correct, emotional, and personal agendas at work to confuse the terms in those applications.

Our dogs live with us within a social group in a human society. Choose to be a leader, control the environment, shape the dog's behavior after the fact, or use a combination - depending upon what you are trying to achieve with a given dog within a given moment.

It's up to each individual to find the right combination for themselves and let others choose their own way.

Everything else is just a word dance, IMO.

Are We Too Wrapped Up in Being Alpha?