I think we may just quit

    • Gold Top Dog
    Thank you thank you thank you to all of you who have replied in a civil kind and understanding manner.  I'll admit I was a little skeptical about posting this at first because I know it seems like titles are all that matter, and that's not the case.
     
    One of my goals is "a title a year".  I'd rather have one than none, and the reason for this is, I've had SO many flops, fops, and failures in my life (not just in dogs), and I just NEED to succeed in something, and my dog has helped SO much with that.
     
    I do belong to quite a few GSD lists, and I was on clean run briefly,  but there was just SO much volume I couldn't keep up, and I get "lost" in digest.  And you're right, my trainers are GOOD trainers, but they're not able to help with what seems to be a Shepherd problem.  The head instructors of agility have Tervurens, and their Tervs don't behave like GSDs behave (though Dave started out with Shepherds, he admits that sometimes he's at a loss to how to solve some of the habits and problems Strauss has got, because he's never run into them with his own GSDs).
     
    I am basically the ONLY member of the club with a GSD that comes to class consistently.  The others are passers by or "come when I can" types.
     
    How is Strauss with directions?
     
    Good.  He understands "Get in" "get out" "left" "right" and "go"
     
    Does he know directional commands in an agility context?
     
    Yes, he does them in class consistently.
     
    If he's frustrated b/c your late with your commands (common, common problem especially with green handlers/dogs) directionals may help this.
     
    My instructors have told me I've gotten MUCH better, and I'm giving commands as he's taking off for his current obstacle, instead of waiting until after he's nearly completed it.
     
    I say may because if there is something wrong with your relationship with him, that fundamental needs to be addressed first.  I guess he's on a NILIF program?

    Yes, but I don't take it to extremes.  He sits at the door, and waits until I release him (Varying time), he lays down and has to wait until I release him to eat, he works for toys, doesn't have free access to anything but recreational bones and water (I leave the rec bones out because sometimes he needs to entertain himself, and I don't want him crated constantly), etc etc.  He's allowed to come up on the bed if he's invited, but must get off when I say....all that rot.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Xeph

    I am NOT a patient person by nature, and this dog has taught me that patience is key


    What's that quote? ... "When you're ready, the teacher appears."

    Sounds like you've got a dedicated teacher.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Xeph, I think you got defensive, and that may have clouded your ability to understand and assimilate the suggestions offered.  You have to remember that we see only what you type as well.  I think my frustration came from the "but" that I kept hearing in the tone of your posts.  You came here for advice.  So, just take what you need out of what we post, and reject the rest.
    My inclination is to tell you that herding dogs are not among those that like incessant drilling of the same behavior. ("I did it three times already, mom - what are we doing next?")  That leads to frustration and grumbling from them.  Far, far better to get a couple of great responses, C/T and go have some fun or take a walk.
    I think you will find that they learn better that way.
    Also, you could try asking your dog to work, and when he comes over and puts his mouth on you, all activity stops.  You turn away and ignore him, and as soon as he pulls his mouth off, it's C/T.  Sometimes you do have to train the specific behavior you want.
    If he has been taught "leave it", you can use that command pre-emptively. 
    Do take agilebasemji's advice, and others', to heart.  Everyone here wants you to have the sport dog of your dreams, but we see that you will not have that without stepping back and really analyzing this behavior correctly.  Video would be great.

    he's a snot.

    He may be, but it may also be that he is a snot because there is something, either a behavior, a cue, or a relationship, that he does not comprehend.  Figure out what it is and don't label your dog.  When Maska came to me, everyone said "stubborn", "stupid", "willful".  Nope, just a hound.  And, now, one that is fully trained, has a great recall, and does therapy work.  Think of Strauss as a non-biting agility dog...then figure out how to make the reality match the vision.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm thinking you are pressuring this dog way too hard. You admit you feel that he MUST succeed and win titles-- and he sounds like he is capable of it. But the DOG should never know it isn't all just a fun game. You may be drilling too much. GSDs are smart, and endless practice of the same behaviors just bores them to death.
    If I were you, I'd put one jump up in my backyard, and every day I'd send the dog over the jump and at random ask for either drive straight ahead, turn to one side or the other, or come back, and reward with his toy. And do it ONCE only. After a few days of this, if he's drivey but calm and doing well, try adding a second obstacle.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Xeph, I think Strauss is the perfect dog for you.  Taking this break is for both of you, but I kind of think Strauss believes that this break is for you and he's gonna teach you some patience.  It's working too, so he is a pretty smart fellow.
     
    All I can say is that what you've accomplished with Strauss is incredible thus far.  I know you're a driven person and I admire that.  If I were in your shoes I would approach this, for now, as if Strauss were a hound.  Make every obstacle part of a game.  Then string the obstacles together in random order.  But be patient-take some time and have fun.  Don't just have fun on the outside, really enjoy it.  Strauss knows when you're not having fun.
     
    In a nutshell:  I know you're not patient, but your last experiment showed that patience works right now.  Be patient and have fun with your big guy. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    I was just reading some other message lists, and someone commented that sometimes dogs who fanatically bite/attack their handlers are trying to get their handler to stop moving aka misplaced herding behavior. If that's what Strauss is doing, then your tactic of stopping the run has actually been rewarding him.  Something to think about.
    • Gold Top Dog
    mudpuppy, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking at the end of our jumpers run the other day!
     
    He comes back, and he'll nip, and often times he'll circle and circle and nip again, and sort of create a barrier (I can see it in our jumpers run, our tunnelers run isn't NEARLY as bad).
     
    So in this regard, I have admittedly been conflicted.  Do I STOP the run because he's biting, or do I keep going!?  It seems a reward either way!  ....This dog sure keeps me hopping, I'll tell you that xD.  Lately when we've been stopping, I've dropped him, given him a minute to chill, and then sent him on.
     
    I do like the idea of sending him over a jump and either letting him go on or calling him back.  It's a good way to work on both send outs AND on his wrap (which he haven't started teaching yet).  We're in intermediate II class, and so while he is more advanced, I know my instructors will let me slow down and train a bit differently from the rest of the class.
     
    It's rainy out today, but you know, we train rain or shine ^_^  I'm going to try and get that video up, but please be patient, I have dialup, and so uploading things is SLOOWWWWWW!
     
    Xeph, I think Strauss is the perfect dog for you.

    And I love the bugger to death Ed, even if he does drive me to tears sometimes!
     
    GSDs are smart, and endless practice of the same behaviors just bores them to death.

    I've noticed this with him.  When I was training Ranger Dog in agility, it was COMPLETELY different, and I will admit that I've been having a hard time adjusting to Strauss, because they run SO very differently.
     
    Ranger would drill and drill and drill and be happy to do it, and wouldn't really show any outward signs of frustration (and it's one of the rare occasions that old dog's tail would wag....he's such a serious GSD), and we'd do just dandy.
     
    I can send Strauss through a short sequence once successfully with no biting as long as there is a target....he's especially good with jump chutes, but I run with him one jump and then tell him go, and let him leave me in the dust.  After that, I need to stop and think "Do I have him try it again, or do I step off to the side?"  I tend to vary it, but keeping his frustration level down has been the balancing act of a lifetime!
     
    He's either frustrated because he just doesn't get it and it's too much, or he's frustrated because we're not out there running with everybody else.  I know there's conflict going on in his little doggy brain, and we're going to do our best to solve it. ....Now we just have to find what the conflict IS!

    I had him out while they were simply setting UP the agility equipment at the expo, and the moment he saw it, he rose on his toes, and his ears went up, and he got quite prancy.  He followed me on lead (we were just milling about and getting ready for a potty break), but every two seconds, he'd turn sideways and look at that equipment. 
     
    I did reward him for looking back at me and not screaming (in just the last two months he has stopped screaming at the equipment while they set up....agility gets him so fired, just looking at the setup would set him off...now we can do heel work around it). 
     
    He has a very low threshold for excitement/arousal when it comes to agility, and he walks into the stock pavilion and starts screaming when he sees Matt now, but everybody tells me it will get better, and that schutzhund will likely help both situations, as later on he'll be learning to keep quiet until otherwise.  It'll probably get worse before it gets better, since we're doing drive work right now and building confidence....I think I should just tattoo the mantra on my head "It will come, it will get better."
    • Silver
    As I was reading through this thread, I was thinking that this sounds like a person who keeps going too long, and has not come to understand the concept of quitting on a good note. Someone who keeps working as the session begins to spiral downwards. Then I read about your 15 minute attention session.
     
    Now, I don't want to rain on your parade, this was a great thing. But still 15 minutes is Way Too Long. Maybe a dog who has been working on this attention exercise for months, starting with one or two minutes, then five, then ten, etc. etc. can do 15 minutes.
     
    Dogs, like people, tend to retain best the last thing they did in a training session. So the worst thing you can do is to keep going until the dog fails. Once he's gotten to the point of biting he is not going to come back to a happy successful worker in that session. So this has become your pattern.
     
    One of the best tenents of dog training I have ever heard is "Set your dog up for success. Do not set him up to fail." That means always always always working your dog at the level where they are successful. Working at the level where they fail is only practicing failure. If you try something new and they do not get it after one or two tries, you need to do something else to make them successful. Quite often that involves breaking the exercise into smaller steps, or making it easier somehow.
     
    Here's my first thought on how to add a second obstacle without any stress. About one stride after the first, put a bar on the ground. Set so he will have to go over it through pure momentum. It should not seem like an obstacle. Use a clicker and reward after going over the bar. You can then gradually move the bar away. Then you can very gradually start raising the height. The first step would only be two bars stacked.
     
    You need to concentrate on keeping your sessions short and free from pressure. You need to concentrate on making him successful. I absolutely would not correct this dog. That only increases stress and anxiety. If he starts to have issues, then you made a mistake by probably pushing him too far. For several weeks I would only work him on the things that he does well so that happy working becomes your new pattern. You can work on new things that are totally not related to the things that have given you problems, like attention.
     
    I also think setting an artificial goal of a title a year is unrealistic. Maybe a very experienced trainer could do that with this dog. You are not that experienced trainer. I tell people that each dog I get seems to be smarter than the one before. Actually I am a better trainer and it gets easier and easier. I made tons of mistakes with my first dog. It would probably be a more realistic goal to spend a couple years setting a very good sound foundation and then getting two titles in a year. Many obedience trainers do this. They have the dog basically trained through all three levels of obedience before they start entering novice level trials. Then they get their titles bam bam bam.
     
    Dog training should be fun. Fun for the dogs, fun for the people. Think of it as a game. If one of you is not having fun then you need to think about what you can change to bring the fun back in.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Xeph, wanted to add, your shirt and hat rock......[;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I just had an epiphany, reading your last post, Xeph.

    Click To Calm, by Emma Parsons.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Click To Calm, by Emma Parsons

    I may know somebody I can borrow it from.  Money is more than tight right now, so no new books.  Danke for the suggestion.
     
    Now, I don't want to rain on your parade, this was a great thing. But still 15 minutes is Way Too Long. Maybe a dog who has been working on this attention exercise for months, starting with one or two minutes, then five, then ten, etc. etc. can do 15 minutes.

     
    I guess I disagree just because we didn't do the same thing over and over for 15 minutes.  I mean, overall the whole thing was about attention, but I didn't require anything super heavy from him, and we ended on a good note.
    • Gold Top Dog
    My first thought on your first post, was a stressed dog.  Why?  I dunno exactly but Kota, who I do agility with, did not bite, but would shut down and go sniff something.  It was a reaction to stress, whether my own or his.  If he works fine in class but not in a trial, that's a definite.  But also, if he's way out in front of you and then comes back to bite/nip at you, then you are not giving him clear enough signals or fast enough commands for the next obstacle.  Can you do a pinwheel with him through 3-4 jumps?  Can you keep up with him when running a course?  Whether with rear crosses or just keeping up with him?

    Also with Kota, I retaught the weaves this winter, beginning with just two poles to get the entrance down, then moving up to 3 then 4 then 6.  I can't drill him on weaves or he begins to mess up.  It's much better for us to get one great weave session down, then quit, move on to something else, than it is to keep drilling, much like you said about Strauss.  With Kota I have to keep changing the game to keep him interested.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Can you do a pinwheel with him through 3-4 jumps?  Can you keep up with him when running a course?  Whether with rear crosses or just keeping up with him?

    No, can't do a pinwheel.  Get in a jump or two and then "BAM!" nip.  Keep up? *ROFLMAO* AHAHAHAHA. ....No.
     
    If I do rear crosses, I can CATCH up, but I can't KEEP up.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Try pinwheels where the jumps are really close together and all you have to do is pivot on a leg.  As he gets good at doing 3 or 4, move them out a foot, repeat, etc.  Just to see how he does.
    • Gold Top Dog
    yeah, with a fast dog you're going to have develop methods of directing him from a distance-- think about working towards being able to stand in the middle of the ring and just control him without actually running around (I've actually seen physically disabled handlers manage this feat, so don't laugh).
    Do you have verbal "turning" commands? Good verbal obstacle discriminations? Can you stand still and send him from a distance over each obstacle, without you having to run with him?  All things to work on that will help un-confuse your dog and hopefully stop the biting.