I think we may just quit

You [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/post.asp?do=reply&messageID=306393&toStyle=tm#]will[/link] probably not do [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/post.asp?do=reply&messageID=306393&toStyle=tm#]it[/link], but try clicker training.  If the problem is communication, that may help you.  Apparently, your agility instructor is not using clickers, or she would not have pinned your dog. 

 
That's not a good assumption to make.  I clicker contacts and target obstacles...I've even started clicking for proper completion of the weaves.  And the instructor clicker trains her own dogs.  Not everybody who clicker trains uses nothing BUT the clicker...I certainly don't.
 
One person Strauss works extremely well with in any situation, is Dave....and Strauss even nips Dave during agility, which tells me something.  Dave has a "presence" about him.  He's a very kind man, but he has high expectations, though he is good at conveying what he wants to people through words and dogs through his body language.  He's also able to hide his frustration well, and remain a lot calmer than I can.
 
Even when he corrects Strauss (in anything), it's firm, but not forceful, and his voice is serious, but he sees no need to yell.  He's encouraging, and it's always "try again, try again, it will get better"....it's not getting better.  Even to Dave, who I know Strauss respects, he'll be "sorry" for a minute or two, and then we're back to jerkiness.
 
I'm watching the video of the runs we got taped this past weekend, and I'm looking for things I may be doing.  If I can get them uploaded, I'll post them.

Hi - please do not take any type of offense at my response to you - but I have a dear friend with a very similar situation with her female GSD.  Her does does the screaming and nipping at her.  Now, I've been an instructor for 30+ years and have worked with this dog.  And, when I am around the dog behaves perfectly - she knows the difference - she will even obey her owner when I am in the area.  But this dog lacks respect for her owner (this is the hard part) - and because of her lack of respect, she is also a very frustrated dog.  My suggestion would be stop agility altogether - do some obedience work - make sure that your dog obeys all of your commands and then slowly start with one obstacle.  GSD's are very quick to become bored and frustrated and then the naughty behavior manifests itself.  Find some type of job for this dog - carry the paper in, pick up toys off the florr, go get the leash, etc., challenge his brain, which will put you in charge.  All that biting and screaming is frustration and a call for you to take charge of the situation - hope you can find an instructor to help you with this.....good luck.
 
dianeg

Changing handlers in agility only clarifies one thing - it isn't the signals hes getting from you. But that does not mean that he UNDERSTANDS what is being asked of him - changing handlers isn't going to make a signal he doesn't understand from you any clearer. If he doesn't have the skills to be working at such a distance, he is going to be frustrated no matter what, no matter who is doing the handling. Your dog is faster than you, doesn't have a solid foundation or a full set of skills, requires a lot of handling from afar, and gets annoyed when he has to stop playing his game.


I don't know the whole situation with Strauss - but it sounds like he has been pushed a lot way too quickly and now you are frustrated because he isn't progressing fast enough. We've all been there - it is part of the reason why even though my dog is physically capable of completing his rally titles and a CD right now, we are NOT showing - because he's young, immature, and why rush? I don't want to bring him out until we can go through straight to utility, and he has a full set of skills under him. I will consider bringing him out in Rally later this year, and CDP/prenovice, and at nationals he may show just to support the entry, but other than that - his competition career is in no rush.  Strauss is young and yes, he already has two novice level titles - but I have seen many people who can go out and get an RN, CD, and NA/NAJ and then hit a big brick wall in training because they rushed out for novice level and never trained past that. He's having trouble with control in agility, he is having trouble with heeling in obedience - these are foundations and if you don't have a good foundation, you cannot get much farther than novice. I'd take time off, work on your relationship with  him, and start back with foundations and build up from there.

We are on a trial break (have been since his last title in October), and really, while I did have a lot of plans for the summer, I'll be happy if all we obtain is our BH (June/July/August timeframe).

We've given up Rally completely, and the only way he'll finish his Rally titles is if I send somebody out with him to do it (I don't find it all that appealing).

The reason we DO all this stuff is so he's NOT bored, and he knows all sorts of tricks and odd things...it can't be boredom...we do too much to be bored, and he actually had a month long break from agility and schutzhund altogether because my ankle was broken, and I was preparing for college auditions.  We've just gotten back into it in the last couple of weeks, and we haven't trialed since October.

I'm not sure he enjoyed the break....I know I didn't.  I guess we'll keep working on the obedience for awhile...I find it to be the most dull, but at this point it seems to be the only thing we'll be able to title in/get a cert in this year.
 
ETA: I do have to say that even with the agility frustration, we did three days of Demos this past weekend, and his obedience was better than usual.  In part, it's probably because it was in front of 2000+ people, and thus, it's more exciting than when you just walk around in front of a judge.  He was very "up" and flashy on Friday, very attentive, watched me even when I didn't watch him, and his retrieves and drop on recall were absolutely excellent.
 
He was always ready to go go go, and the only hiccup we had was agility.

ORIGINAL: Xeph
 I guess we'll keep working on the obedience for awhile...I find it to be the most dull, but at this point it seems to be the only thing we'll be able to title in/get a cert in this year.

I guess it just seems to me at least,  that this is more important to you than anything else. Rather than working with the things that are giving him trouble even if they are the more fun things that he enjoys, you're only going to do the thing that gets him titles?

This is the first dog I've ever had that was more than "just a pet" and while there is obviously nothing wrong with "just a pet" that's not why I bought him.  I bought him for a purpose, and since this is my first sport dog, yes, titles are important to me.

How old is your beautiful boy?
I agree with other posters that perhaps he had to absorb too much in a short time.
My younger GSDs always had a harder time with training, once they got older and calmed down quiet a bit it was easier.

Let's please not rush to judgement folks.  If I remember correctly, this is a long held dream and has been frustrated many, many times over.

What Glenda said.  PLEASE remember I haven't been doing this (competing) for years and years and years.  I've been obedience training my own dogs since I was a little girl, but this is my VERY first sport dog.

Before I answer all these questions, I just wanted to say that just a few minutes ago, I took Strauss out back, and did something I find extremely frustrating (though effective).  I did some clicker training.  I am NOT a patient person by nature, and this dog has taught me that patience is key (and for those of you who are new and think I'm an impatient windbag....I've greatly improved from a year ago). A couple minutes I just worked on eye contact.  No leash, just a flat buckle collar, Chuckie (a toy), and a Tennis Ball.  All I required of him was for him to come sit at my side (I didn't care if he was heel, just at my side), and look at me.  It's very VERY hard for me not to cue my dog and tell him to watch, but I let it alone.  He figured it out reasonably quickly.  Every time I clicked, I threw Chuckie. ....we ended up using a tennis ball because I accidentally chucked chuckie into one of our pine trees *eye roll* Go me. So, I quietly picked up his tennis ball, and did a little more of the focus work.  Every time he looked at me, I threw the ball.  Soon, he was starting to get confused, and he laid down.  I tried to keep my voice quiet and a bit flat, show no frustration even though he was. "No.  Try again" *BARK BARK BARK* and he'd back up a bit.  "No.  Try again." *BARK BARK BARK* Backed up some more. "No. Try again." *BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK* backed up some more. I turned my back to him, and, on a whim I decided to try something different, because he was frustrated.  I just started walking.  I didn't look at him or talk to him....just started walking around the yard at our heel pace.  And I watched him the best I could (though my eyesight is extremely poor, and my peripheral vision is almost nada now), and I heard him get up, and all of a sudden there he was at my side.  I took a couple more steps and gave him a click...chucked the ball.  He brought it back, and I just started walking again.  No commands, no praise, no verbal corrections...just silence. He was heeling close to me, staring at my face even though I wasn't looking at him, and he didn't look at the tennis ball, even though it was right by my side. *click* Chucked the ball.  Off he went.  "Strauss come." Trots back with the ball "aus" drops it, lays down.  I pick it up, and just start walking again.  If he fell out of heel position, I simply turned and walked the other way, no words, no correction, no "get up here", I just turned, and when he caught up, if he was heeling and looking at me *click" Chuck the ball. We did this for about 15 minutes (the whole session, not the heeling), and without words he was heeling and attentive, and while not wholly flashing, it's probably the best attention he's ever had.  We did no halts, a couple about turns (mundane and wide, I just cared that he followed), and he kept up, and kept watching...only looked down briefly to see where we were going.  We even heeled past the fence line where the new neighbor's Collie was, and he paid him no mind. *click* chuck the ball one more time, and inside we went. I'm not sure who I'm more proud of....me or the dog.  It seems like a little bitty thing to a few, but I'm just not a patient person, and being so quiet and not cuing my dog is highly frustrating and difficult for me, because I am somebody who NEEDS to control everything, or my world will fall apart.  Just "letting it be" is just....not something I do. I showed my Old Man in conformation very sparingly, and we never titled in anything, because that's not what he was for.  He was just for getting my feet wet.

I know it seems harsh or unfair to some of you that I'm focusing SO much on titles, and while Strauss IS my pet first and foremost, he is still more than "just a pet" and I bought him for a purpose.  So yeah, titles are important to me.

To answer your question snownose, he'll actually be 3 in 11 days (already o.O!).  While I am frustrated, I do remind myself ALL the time "He's a young dog, his lines are slow to mature, we're both new to this, it will come."  It's just hard to believe the "it will come" line sometimes.  Especially after we've been working so hard, he's been picking up things just like that *snaps fingers* and all of a sudden, it's like we've run into the Great Wall of China at 200 mph and we can't seem to find our away around/through it.

He's a SMART dog, and a good worker, and I don't doubt he's just as frustrated as I am.  This is a learning experience for both of us.  The issue isn't potential...he's got the potential...more experienced people have told me that he does, and that he's fun to watch, but he's a snot.
 

The Big Man and I at the Pet Expo on Saturday

ORIGINAL: Xeph

This is the first dog I've ever had that was more than "just a pet" and while there is obviously nothing wrong with "just a pet" that's not why I bought him.  I bought him for a purpose, and since this is my first sport dog, yes, titles are important to me.

And apparently they are more important than anything else as well. I'm sorry, Xeph - doesn't seem like I have any more advice to offer you, I've just been repeating myself over and over again. He lacks foundation and may not be the sport dog you want him to be. What you do with that is up to you.

My only advice is to keep on pluggin' away and find what works best for you and your dog. Explore all options, look at the situation from all angles, and trust yourself and the advice of a hands-on, eyes-on professional you can trust through your gut-instincts to help you.
 
Don't give up, even if you have to re-evaluate your goals, means, and this dog's specific strengths and weaknesses.
 
Hang in there! []

I know this must be sooo frustrating for you! The only advice I could give (and please take it with a pound or two of salt) is that your handsome, intelligent partner there might be feeding off your admitted lack of patience. If you're having trouble changing his behaviors/attitudes, maybe you could try working on yours and see what happens? (Please don't take this as a criticism - I know I sure as heck would be frustrated and impatient, too! Still, I've found smart animals can really pick up on those sorts of emotions, and it rarely encourages them to do what I want - usually the opposite!)

It sounds like the clicker training episode worked really well for you guys. Maybe you could re-train some of the agility using clicker/shaping and see if that helps?

Again, I have no experience with competitive agility, just throwing out some crazy ideas that might inspire some better ones of your own. As you noted, your stinker is still young, and I'm sure with time you guys will be looking back at this frustrating period with a big long laugh.

(Also, you make a cute couple!)

It's already been said, but when I get frustrated and agitated the dogs pick up on my energy, and then act out and do stupid things. Patience, and being calm is very important with any dog, but more so with dogs that are hyper and what I call being in that "Nippy, Yippy Stage " as we all know GSDs and other herding breeds can be until they mature.....don't give up......[]

I'm coming in a bit late here and I think you've been given some good advice.  Sounds like, based on your last post, that you may be on the right path by using quiet and the clicker.  I'd also look around for an email group that you feel could help you.  Surely there are GSD sports or agility lists.  (We have a basenji sports list.)  Someone else said they knew of another GSD with this same problem, so I'm certain you're not the only person on planet earth with this problem.  Not even the only person with a GSD with this problem.  Ask those people.  I was having some problems with my basenjis, my trainers, while very good, weren't very helpful with my (sighthound-related?) problem.  I found a Sighthound Agility list - that started me on my path of solving some of our problems.  (Training is a continual thing so we're always working on something.  Just like we're always practicing for our NEXT dog.)  I know CleanRun has an email list.  CR is also worth subscribing to, if you haven't. 
 
Another, perhaps in addition to your current one, trainer may give you a fresh perspective and a new way to look at things.  I'd certainly look into that.  It's a little hard, not being there, to give really helpful advice over the internet in this situation.  I'd also look into private lessons if you can find the right trainer.
 
How is Strauss with directions?  Does he know directional commands in an agility context?  If he's frustrated b/c your late with your commands (common, common problem especially with green handlers/dogs) directionals may help this.  I say may because if there is something wrong with your relationship with him, that fundamental needs to be addressed first.  I guess he's on a NILIF program?
 
I'd say hang in there.  Sometimes the only thing to do is persevere. 

What I've gotten from reading all of this is that you're probably doing too many things with him at one time. He seems like the type of dog that gets frustrated and overwhelmed easily and you're throwing a myriad of different activities at him. I would concentrate on ONE sport at a time. If you want to do agility with him then just concentrate on that for now. It just really seems like you need to take one thing at a time and go slower.

I'm also an impatient person and it seems to me that after your one clicker session with eye contact you'll be tempted to move on to something else. When really, it's something that needs to be completely solidified in his mind- which will probably take lots more sessions. Wait until he's REALLY got that down before even trying to move on to anything else. AFTER you've got that down, try going back to agility but NOT doing sequences or off leash. I'd have him on leash and just do one obstacle at a time. Take things slooooowly. See how things go; it may be that something about agility really frustrates him and that should be respected. Whether or not titles are important to you, maybe he's not cut out for it.