Dog Community

I think we may just quit

Xeph

Posted : 4/1/2007 7:25:45 PM

It was the last day of the Pet Expo, and Strauss was absolutely AWFUL in agility. I can't get through a course without him biting me, and I have tried absolutely EVERYTHING short of an e collar to get him to quit. Nothing works. This is a problem we've been working on for well over a year, and I've just about had it. Sometimes I'm ready to quit dogs altogether. Everything I want to do with them falls through. The entire litter of Corgwyn died, the Vizsla bitch I was showing in conformation is being sold, another bitch I was looking at is likely going elsewhere, Ranger was really just too old to show in the first place, and Strauss just won't behave. I'm tired of having a dog I can only practice wtih...WHEN will I actually get a dog I can trial with!? Agility is probably my favorite sport, but I'm ready to just say "forget it", because this biting just isn't getting any better.
Things we've tried:Chucking under the chin (suggestion from another competitor...yeah, that was effective Crying

)Bitter apple on me (as well as many other unappealing flavors...he doesn't care)Making him lie down and wait until another dog wentQuitting the game altogether (packing up and LEAVING...tried that for 6 months with absolutely no improvement)And a myriad of other things I can't even remember. If you name a few, I could tell you what we have and haven't done. My instructors have no other ideas that I've heard, aside from "keep leaving until he gets it"...but how the heck do I improve with no dog? Nobody else has a dog I can run. But Strauss DOES know what I want..he's not stupid. If I send him to something from ONE obstacle, he will GO...but we start trying to do sequences, and he gives me the finger a bites. This is a dog that I know CAN and WILL do distance work, but all he does now is come and bite me. I've been working on my timing, and my instructors have said that it HAS gotten better, but there's only so much I can improve :-/ Got video this weekend. All I can see is my dog disboeying and doing what HE wants to do. I love my dog, but I really don't want to be one of those people who spends five years training and then MAYBE gets ONE title in the sport :-/

He takes ONE jump, maybe two if I'm lucky, and then starts blowing me off. I try and bring him back and set him up to take the next obstacle, and all he does is bark and bite at me (arms and stomach). I have no problem with a vocal dog...that I can deal with, but he always comes back biting. I'm asking the schutzhunders for help next weekend, when I go, and I'm bringing the video camera with me so they can see what I'm talking about. I've given him a VERY sharp "NO BITE!!" and a correction....he behaved for maybe half of one sequence...and then back to biting. He just doesn't seem to care.
I have asked and asked and asked others with more experience for help...none have had an issue that was this severe that didn't correct right away. "Do smaller sequences". We're down to a two jump sequence, and that's where we've been at for the last few months. Can't get past 2 jumps, how will we ever get to 15+? It's just so frustrating, because this is a dog I was hoping I could put a MACH on (if not a MACH 2 or 3) and now I'm starting to doubt if I can even get a blasted Novice title on him. And if one more person tells me "You need to be the reward" I will cry...and not just normal I'm over it in 2 minutes crying, I mean I will CRY. It's like they think I don't KNOW this already. It's been almost three years, I've had this dog, and I still can't figure out how to make me more interesting than everybody and eveyrthing else. I'm cool if I have a tuggy or a ball, or a cookie...otherwise, forget it. And the more I work with him, the more I realize Strauss lives to please Strauss, and you better have something damn good otherwise. And this is NOT a dog I give free reign to, or free cookies, I've stopped allowing others to give him treats (everything comes from me), and nothing is working We have beautiful heeling...if his dumbbell is under my arm, or I have a ball....we have a gorgeous drop on recall and drop out of motion, but never without him barking at me, we have a beautiful send out....when HE feels like it. I'm just out of ideas for how to become the center of his universe, and it's just becoming less and less fun, and if I cry in class one more time, I'll probably be too embarrassed to go back. I've gotten more patient because of this dog, but my patience is wearing thin, and I'm probably headed to an ulcer. It's embarrassing to have a dog that is SO good in obedience (tons of compliments) to having the same dog bite the hell out of me in agility. And it's even more frustrating that I've tried everything short of zapping him with an e-collar to get him to knock it off I hate to be stuck in this pity party, but I don't think I've ever been so frustrated or upset with my dog.

dobedvm

Posted : 4/1/2007 9:52:39 PM

Can you post the videos?

Most people I know doing agility with their dogs (my dog is purely a novice at this point) at high levels remind us this often - a dog that is uncontrollable on the course is often a dog that really doesn't KNOW the basics. My friends dobe does this to her when she is uncomfortable working away from the handler, or doesn't have the basics down enough to be doing work that is too advanced for her.

Have you broken him back down to the very basics and retaught it?

dobedvm

Posted : 4/1/2007 10:22:45 PM

I read some other posts you had on this, all the way starting back 2-3 months after you started agility and he was already showing this behavior on sequences, and I agree with the advice then - he was pushed too early too far, and he had no business doing sequences that early on, without more groundwork and basics under him.

I assume he's a fast dog and you do a lot of handling from a distance, sending him, etc? And he comes back to do the biting? I think your dog is frustrated and doesn't understand what is asked of him, and that he may lack some basics and foundation, at least in regards to agility.

In terms of the other frustrations, not every dog is going to be capable of everything. It may just be that Strauss isn't going to be the ultimate competition dog - not every dog is. Not every dog is driven enough to please, has enough biddability to handle it, has enoug of the right type of drive. I've had 5 dogs in the past 5 years and only one has had the potential to go anywhere past novice levels in anything, simply due to drives. Sometimes we make mistakes early in training, puppy raising, etc (god knows I have!) that we cannot fix, at least not completely.

Work with what you have and enjoy it - not every dog is MACH/OTCH material. Strauss seems like a wonderful dog and it is clear you love him - if something frustrates you to tears, is it worth doing?

Xeph

Posted : 4/1/2007 10:48:19 PM

I assume he's a fast dog and you do a lot of handling from a distance, sending him, etc? And he comes back to do the biting?

A LOT faster than me....and I got really annoyed when somebody told me today that I'm trying to race him and to quit doing it...no I'm not.. I know there's no way in hell I'm going to beat him, which is why I send him. If I thought I could beat him, I'd be doing more front crosses and less rears....if I thought I could beat him, I'd quit SENDING him to obstacles >.<

Sometimes it's one or two jumps, and then I can't get him off me (biting) to get to the next obstacle...sometimes I can get him redirected, but he'll only take one obstacle before he comes back and bites again.

The only thing left that may possibly work is a pinch collar and a tab to correct him for biting, because absolutely nothing else has worked. I LOVE agility...but I still have as yet to have a dog I can actually trial with in it...the waiting just gets old after awhile.

Have you broken him back down to the very basics and retaught it?

If you mean one or two jumps/obstacles...yes....for the last few months we've been doing that. Can't get past two obstacles before he starts biting.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 4/1/2007 11:42:36 PM

The basics, to me, would be walking, on a lead, through the course with him. I'd say the commands, and reward for each obey. Like a brand, spanking new puppy.

If he can't behave like a big boy, he's treated like a baby. Until he can make it through the course, slowly and calmly, he doesn't get to go fast. Maybe that's what Kim is saying?

I don't compete in anything, so I could be WAY off.

Xeph

Posted : 4/1/2007 11:46:32 PM

I don't disagree, and I'd be willing to attempt the slow on lead thing again..though he seems equally as frustrated, because now we're hardly moving at all...and that's boring (in his mind...of course I think it's boring too, but I'd like to make progress).

miranadobe

Posted : 4/1/2007 11:51:21 PM

The more I read my own comment/question, the more I realize I'm up too late to post coherently, so deleting it. [

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willowchow

Posted : 4/2/2007 1:36:50 AM

Now, take this with a grain of salt because I've never done any type of sport. But, is it possible he's just completely confused between schutzhund--hope that's spelled correctly I'm too lazy to look it up at this hour--and agility. I'm getting at isn't one where he is supposed to bite and could it be possible he's just all confused. Or, do you give some sort of reaction when he does this that makes him think this is some type of game?

Just some ideas.

Xeph

Posted : 4/2/2007 3:46:03 AM

But, is it possible he's just completely confused between schutzhund--hope that's spelled correctly I'm too lazy to look it up at this hour--and agility.

No, because this was going on LONG before schutzhund (we've only been doing serious SchH work for 3-4 months and this has been going on for over a year).

Angelique

Posted : 4/2/2007 6:04:31 AM

After reading the "flat heeling" thread and now this one, I would say your dog is not respecting you or taking you seriously.

art of this may be the relationship between the two of you and part of this may be due to the training methods not fitting the dog.

At this point I think I would spend more time with the Schutz folks or a more working dog group and give the agility a rest since it's not enjoyable for either of you right now.

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/2/2007 7:26:13 AM

I would not spend time with the Sch folks if you have a dog that is indiscriminately biting you. I'm more inclined to agree with dobedvm, except that I think you may well have pushed this dog too fast and in too many disciplines.
If I were you, I'd forget competing right now and concentrate on one thing and one thing only - get rid of the biting. Find yourself an agility trainer who understands clicker training (not just training using a clicker - there's a difference) and go back to square one if necessary. Lacking that, if you need to work on your own, here's my suggestion. If he bites you, the game (agility) stops instantly. No punishment, no icky stuff, no eye contact, no speaking, just quietly into a crate or the car he goes for a time out. If he wants to play (and get his reward) he must not bite you. Behavior that is never reinforced tends to disappear. But, you must also reward COPIOUSLY for good behavior, so if he makes it one more step today without biting than he did yesterday, make it rain roast beef!!!
It sounds like you may have accidentally reinforced this with some of your attempts to stop it. Dogs aren't always learning what we think they are - their associations tend to be more immediate and less circumspect.

Xerxes

Posted : 4/2/2007 7:53:18 AM

Xeph,

Wow, you've got alot of different behaviors happening at once, or at least that's what it sounds like to me.

I think the first part of this is understanding the "why" of the behavior: perhaps you reinforced the biting in some way as to make it seem as if it was/is the reward to Strauss.

I know how serious you are about competition, perhaps when you go into that agility ring you are nervous yourself and those subtle "I am nervous" cues are influencing your dog.

Will Strauss follow agility commands from another person? You could always see if he behaves the same way with your instructor, as long as the other person has been informed of his specific behaviors.

If his behavior is the same, then take a break for a few weeks. The first time back do walk throughs on lead, progressing to longer leads and a larger distance between the two of you. It might be slower, but as long as he is controlled that should help out quite a bit.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/2/2007 8:53:27 AM

Every time I've seen agility dogs leap up on and bite/bark at their handlers it's because the dog was totally confused as to what the handler wanted-- usually directions given too late on course. Correcting the dog for the handler's errors just makes the problem worse.

Let me suggest playing a game: get a friend, a human, and let the human play the part of the dog, and you "handle" the human and they can let you know if your signals are clear and on time.

as to your dog, I'd stop doing more than one or two obstacles at a time until you can clarify your signals. If you can't send your dog over a single obstacle and get the dog to turn to the left or right or loop back to you on command (verbal/ body commands, whatever you use), without the dog going nuts or being confused you have no business doing short sequences or going to trials.

Xeph

Posted : 4/2/2007 3:20:23 PM

Will Strauss follow agility commands from another person?

He's just as big a jerk with the instructor who tried to run him.

He nipped at her, and she pinned him (which I don't believe in, but I allowed on the off chance it may actually work). He was briefly apologetic....and then right back to it.

My medium drive dog turns into a high drive nutjob on the course....we don't have this issue with tunnelers because he loves tunnels so much he's not focused on me. Of course, everybody tells me I can't run tunnelers because the reward should come from me, and not something on the course, but quite frnakly, I'm not sure I'll ever be the center of his world like everybody wants to see.

I'm not saying he's not trainable...he's proven that's far from the truth...it's just that agility just does something to him. The MOMENT we finish a course, he's absolutely normal again. It's like nothing happened and nothing went on. He's attentive, obedient, relaxed...he's fine.

I've tried for months doing the "you bit, we leave" thing...I'm sorry, but it's just not effective with this dog. It only builds his frustration and mine. He is NOT connecting that we're leaving because he bit me. All he knows is we're leaving, and he doesn't like that.

We can heel around agility equipment just fine, and at one point we were trying to send him over one obstacle and then call him back to sit. It worked for a couple weeks, and then he decided "This game sucks, let's do it MY way" and he started getting pushy for his cookies. We'd pack up and leave....he'd scream all the way home.

Putting him up in the car does no good, because he knows where the equipment is, and he'll scream...and scream...and scream. We don't have agility class for a couple weeks, and I'll be talking to the instructor about working him on a pinch and tab and just walking the course (long lines are no good, especially for the weaves, which he blows through like a Tasmanian Devil).

I'll grab my friend Laura, and I can have her play Strauss, and we'll see how it goes. That's a good idea Mudpuppy :-)

My instructors have said my timing has greatly improved, even though I do miss things sometimes (don't we all)?

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/2/2007 3:28:09 PM

You will probably not do it, but try clicker training. If the problem is communication, that may help you. Apparently, your agility instructor is not using clickers, or she would not have pinned your dog. I would find another trainer, if just temporarily. What have you got to lose - it might work.