Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy

    • Puppy

     Until I get a chance to view it, and I look forward to, but since it isn't easy to download a 2 hour video on a slow connection, and since I'm relatively familiar with Panskepp, why don't you simply provide a synopsis of the salient points, just as you ably extract and quote relevant points by Humes' vast body of work? The question is, what is the distinction between emotion and instinct, and do you or Panskepp have a model so that you can provide said definition?

    • Puppy

     I attended a lecture by Dr. Margulis on symbiogenesis. Her opening statement was that all mutations are deleterious. She's a credentialed first tier scientist who doesn't believe in theory of random mutations. My point being there is scientific skepticism on the matter. Also it's interesting to wonder how she would have fared with Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit given that she was married to him.

    At any rate, my definitions are quite precise so I don't understand that complaint, especially since when we query the current "models" no such definitions can be sustained which I would welcome someone to paraphrase Panskepp since I haven't gotten that memo and apparently neither has Dimasio or Kagen.

    Finally, my point is that the current models can't account for the phenomenon of behavior and learning etc.. This is why I was one of the first to publish a criticism of the dominance model back in 1992 (and provide an alternative model) so we don't need to go over that terrain for purposes of this discussion.

    Rather than picking apart a model before one can repeat it, it would first be necessary to come up with a definition of emotion and see if that squares with observations of behavior.  

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kevin Behan

     I attended a lecture by Dr. Margulis on symbiogenesis. Her opening statement was that all mutations are deleterious. She's a credentialed first tier scientist who doesn't believe in theory of random mutations. My point being there is scientific skepticism on the matter. Also it's interesting to wonder how she would have fared with Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit given that she was married to him.

    At any rate, my definitions are quite precise so I don't understand that complaint, especially since when we query the current "models" no such definitions can be sustained which I would welcome someone to paraphrase Panskepp since I haven't gotten that memo and apparently neither has Dimasio or Kagen.

    Finally, my point is that the current models can't account for the phenomenon of behavior and learning etc.. This is why I was one of the first to publish a criticism of the dominance model back in 1992 (and provide an alternative model) so we don't need to go over that terrain for purposes of this discussion.

    Rather than picking apart a model before one can repeat it, it would first be necessary to come up with a definition of emotion and see if that squares with observations of behavior.  

     

     

    I, for one, would be very interested to see a video of you and a yet untrained dog, working on some obedience skills, or behavior modification exercises, based on your hypotheses about how to deal with dogs based on NDT.  

    • Gold Top Dog

     Kevin, I think the vid covers your question of instinct and affect (emotion) which go hand in hand.  As for a model, I think it is also apparent in the vid that (and this seems to go for all cognitive researchers) the very subjective nature of animal behavior leaves honest searchers in the field with a humble appreciation of its complexity and defiance of absolute description at present. Quite the stuff of scientific investigation, it seems.

     

    You'll get a lot from the two speakers. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    And Kevin, you have just proved my point once again. You ask Burl to prove another's theory, in so many ways, subjecting it to tests of falsifiability, while rejecting such tests of your own theory.

    Even if Burl successfully provides a synopsis of the main points, your disagreement would be with Burl's view, not necessarily a successful refutation of  the theory in question. Just as you might adequately challenge my understanding of Quantum Mechanics and I of yours, but the true test is in proving or disproving the theory itself.

    I understand the desire for a better descriptive language but the new language must be able to answer as well as the old one. And, in many cases, I don't think it gives enough of the answers. Like QM, or even Einstein's relativity, it answers a few hypothetical (and still unproven) what-ifs, but not the answers as a whole.

    So, some might feel that the language of OC is limited but it is so basic that limitations of it might be due to perception problems for the viewer. OC does not prove or disprove emotion. Does not prove or disprove theory of mind or ability to reason. Does not prove or disprove the computational theory of learning. Although, personally, I think computational theory and OC could be complementary. OC is very binary, in my mind. Something is either a punishment or a reward.

    But here we are, trying to read those other things into it. Which is fine but it is mostly polemic for some, as a way to bolster their self-image. That is, I wonder, is the quest truly for a new weltanshcauung or is it simply to be seen as the new authority on a subject, by means of an aesthetic and esoteric lingo which defies understanding in others.

    The problem, in fact, that some have had with your theory, or that of yours as expressed by LCK, is that it assumes lack of reasoning, ToM, even complex emotions in dogs for no other reason than because our dog has not written "Much Ado about Nothing." Even relegating dog communication to the status of simple environmental reaction and disregarding and not the ability to reason, even emotionally. Then, turn around and say the dog operates soley on emotion and "energy." To even, as the other put it, apply freudian analysis of psychosexual behavior to something that wasn't related to it in any form or fashion. Anything, just as long as it's definition or description leads away from behaviorism for no other reason, it seems, than the fact that it tries to lead away from behaviorism.

    No one is going to get rid of behaviorism. Our understandings may evolve and perhaps emotion will be quantified but it still rests on the basis of behaviorism. Not because behaviorism is the supertheory or Skinner being all that smart. It is simply binary. It is reduced to it's smallest compact common units. Even all of the  discussion, including some amphigory on my part, still speaks to behaviorism. A rose, by any other name, will still smell as sweet.

    My dog has not yet provided to me the answer of the first derivative of the function f(x) = 4x^2 + 2x + 2. (Answer is f'(x) = 8x + 2.) Does that mean he cannot do calculus? No, but then I have not assumed that he can or cannot do differential calculus, or it's complement, integral calculus. Though he reacts more instinctively to a moving object than even the best trained sniper, who can do this math. His possible inability to do differential calculus does not negate his ability to reason. I know a number of reasonable, smart people who cannot do that math. So, is it fair of me to set that math as the test for reasoning? It's a silly as saying that a person can't reason because they can't sing the C above Middle C. Which allows me to be the "King" of reasoning because I can.

    By the way, my dog sings. Quite a range, too, from bass to tenor, a greater range than I have. Perhaps he is more reasonable.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

    By the way, my dog sings. Quite a range, too, from bass to tenor, a greater range than I have. Perhaps he is more reasonable.

     

    Damn, all ours do is eat and poop!

    • Puppy

     First you claim that my use of language is vague and unnecessary. So I repeat very concise and precise definitions. This is countered by a list of six supposedly primal emotions and so I demonstrate that this list isn't valid. Then I'm referred to a 2 hour video as that is purported to supply necessary definitions. This is a delaying tactic. If you have watched the video, then offer the definition.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kevin, I find it sad and a bit telling that you won't watch the video just because if its length. I have been watching it and have to stop to take care of an errand. And will finish watching it later.

    A quick point, he points out that language in humans is not indicative of human. It is learned. Case in point, a few known cases of children that grew up outside of human contact. Including a girl that grew up around canids. She eventually learned a few human words, late in life, able to pronounce them because she had human physiology, but she never developed passed the maturity, language wise, of any elderly dog, which can also amass a vocabulary of human words that it can understand. To whit, it is not that the human is so superior. It is that other animals are not as far behind as we think them to be. And a primary objection to your theory thus far is that dogs lacked ToM which has been admitted to be a qualification that humans use to differentiate themselves from other animals. What all animals do share is a drive to communicate. Which necessarily brings in re-examination of whether dogs can reason. More later.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I too am [re]watching it now.  Kevin, emotion is instinct.  Ron, music is origin of language.  Kevin, Panksepp employs Darwin and Damasio.  As for model-building, as I said already, Panksepp is humble in his scientific knowledge that we are not able to lay it all out, but he has some choice words for how we have dissed emotions for 100 years.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kevin, you said "Finally, my point is that the current models can't account for the phenomenon of behavior and learning etc.."

     

    Nothing could be further from reality, especially w/r to Panksepp.

     

    You keep referring to your list of canine 'emotions' as being right while Darwin/Damasio and Panksepp are wrong.  As I pointed out to you, your list of emotions comes from a physics textbook as a description of how material objects react to Newtonian forces.  That ain't got anything to do whatsoever with animal behavior.  Its body endures the forces, but they are secondary, at best, with regards to animal thought and feeling.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Burl
    As for a model, I think it is also apparent in the vid that (and this seems to go for all cognitive researchers) the very subjective nature of animal behavior leaves honest searchers in the field with a humble appreciation of its complexity and defiance of absolute description at present.

    Haha. I was in behavioural ecology for a few years and am now doing a PhD on detecting positive and negative affective state in dogs with a cognitive bias test. I can assure you, every scientist I've ever met in both behavioural ecology and ethology to date has indeed a humble appreciation of the complexity of behaviour and the problem of trying to describe it with minimal subjectivity. I guess that we've walked into a field that in many cases requires us to make things up and then try to test it. We nearly always have to start with something subjective. I've been looking at animal personality literature this year, and there are a few scientists that have done beautiful work testing constructs and cautiously feeling out where it all holds firm.

    Kevin, I am probably one of the most sympathetic ears you'll have, here. I'm a scientist, but before that I was trying to live with a wild hare, and most everything in his world comes down to something that is very much like push and pull. He goes around with a personal space bubble that changes size depending on how comfortable he is, and most of the time when I want him to do something I carefully push on his bubble and release. It's just a subtle application of R-, but knowing how much to push is not far off an art form to me. After 6 years of it I'm getting pretty good at gauging how big his bubble is from moment to moment. With conditioning, I watch him find comfort zones. He will do some targeting with me for the right rewards, but he likes to do it from this one spot where he first learnt it. It's quite the dance to try to perturb him just enough to move him to another spot and then find a way to offer comfort so he'll stay there long enough to relax (thank you safety signal). I do not know where I would be with him without Behaviorism, but nor do I know where I'd be with him without a sensitivity to his personal space and the things that affect his comfort zone.

    In the end, though, I find "push and pull" seems to get unnecessarily complex once it is applied to more complex problems. Like why does a dog pull on leash? Sure, maybe it's "pulled" on by its desire to connect, but how is that different to being led by the SEEK mode? I love the SEEK mode. I think it is beautifully descriptive. I have a proactive little dog that likes to make things happen. His behaviour is wildly different moment to moment to that of my other dog. I can best explain some of the weird things he does that aren't adequately explained by learning theory using personality and affective neuroscience. It fits beautifully. To me, some of NDT fits him nicely, but it doesn't fit my other dog. So it's just as flawed as Behaviorism. But if I take the approach that a dog can be proactive or reactive, and it can have high emotional reactivity or low emotional reactivity, I start to see where this drives behaviour, and I find that to be quite a satisfying explanation.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Did you ever tickle the hare?

     

    It seems worth spending some thoughts on how we are trying to frame what we observe thru our animal interactions in LANGUAGE words.  If we had better access to our affects, we could probably better feel what our furry cousins do.  This was brought out in the two-speaker vid where they note how we give up access to feelings to accel in linguistic thought.  Gotta love Solms facial expressions of affects!

    • Puppy

     That telling, sad point is irrelevant. I'm looking forward to watching the video, but there's no need for the discussion to be put on hold while I do my homework. Since you are familiar with Panskepp why not just bring his definition of emotion and the distinction with instinct into the discussion? 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just to let you know, Kevin, Panksepp's presentation is not the entire video. It is two presentations. The second is from Dr. Solms, as they are both recipients of honorary membership to a professional society for neuroscience and it's meaning in cognition and, most especially in these presentations, communication. So, if necessary, to reply to the topic of Panskepp's work, you need not watch the entire video, just the first 55 minutes, and you can even fast forward through the first 5 minutes as they are introductions by the host.

    What Burl so aptly pointed out about my model of singing is that, music or singing is the root of language. We as a creature, sang before we could construct a symbolic language. And so it is, right in front of your nose. A baby is not born knowing how to speak English, German, or Swahili. They learn that. But every single one of them can hit a soprano C, effortlessly, and, as it perceptionally seems, forever. It is later, in learning language and the speech patterns of our culture that we learn to subdue or eradicate our ability to sing. It is my contention that learning to sing is actually a case of recovering our lost ability. In fact, one of the "tricks" to accessing higher range is called the "crying" timbre, I kid you not.

    Anyway, other creatures share this sound effect. Dogs howl, cats caterwaul. Cows go moo. I took some guff from my vocalist peers when I suggested that a dog is a perfect model of how to sing, starting with breath support. Until they realized I was right. Watch a dog bark. It involves his entire body. The legs assume a stance, the ribs compress, and the dog issues forth with, believe it or not, a relaxed throat but proper compression of tissues similar to folds in humans. It is endemic to the nature of most mammals to do this. What's also important to note is that similar sounds are trans-species. A cry is a cry, whether human or canine. A growl is a growl. A soothing tone, likewise. If you growl and bark at a dog, he will likely do the same back at you. If you speak in low relaxed tones of quiet volume, he will be calm, because that is how momma spoke, too. You think I am wrong, maybe? I absolutely dare you to try it on your dog. Even better, a dog that does not know you. I guarantee that if you come with aggressive tones and signals, you will get bit.

    Why does Shadow sing? He most especially sings on the commercials for Yellow Tail wine, specifically, the one on the roof where the actors are singing opera. He doesn't sing with me but then, the closest I have been singing opera is Ronnie James Dio with "Rainbow in the Dark" and "Holy Diver." Although I did do a version of "Gethsemane" from the rock "opera", "Jesus Christ, Superstar." However, he will also sing with the Overstock dot com ads where they are singing their version of "Jingle Bells." But mostly, he likes traditional style arias.

    What purpose does his singing (it's not just a howl, he varies in pitch, which also creates a variation in timbre) accomplish toward accessing resources? Is he, in fact, appreciating the finer things in life? Or is it a connection to something musical in a number of creatures? And, if so, how can it be denied that he has the ability to reason or have similar emotions simply because he did not form the lyric "Time to say goodbye" as song by Sarah Brightman (my favorite voice of all time)?

    Both speakers quote Freud. The communication ability of animals is one of level, not kind. Dogs can reason, think, emote just like humans can, but not always in the same way or at least, in the same vocal language. I have often said, as is described by those way more qualified than I am, such as Spiritdogs, that dogs can generalize, just not in the ways we always expect or in the degree that we expect, depending on the situation. For example, I didn't expect the "off" command (meaning "to disengage";) to become generalized in my dog, but it did. Perhaps because I trained in more than one circumstance. But in other circumstances, the behavior may not be generalized. One can command a dog to drop a toy or item and get obedience. And that's out the window if a raw meaty bone is involved. Unless you have trained in that circumstance, as well. Dogs do not, as we yet know, have language that involves time. So, while you can tell a misbehaving kid to wait until Daddy gets home, it means nothing to a dog. If you punish a dog later than a second after the behavior, it is lost, for the dog has moved on in his mind. And you can't say "Remember two days ago when you humped the visitor? Well, don't do that." The dog will just look at you like you are speaking Greek.

    But just because the dog lacked the conceptual framework to connect today's correction with yesterday's transgression doesn't mean the dog lacks reasoning ability. By the way, withholding correction from a child doesn't work well, either. You have to correct or deal with the behavior right then, such as immediate removal of privileges, no dessert, whatever. So, even the notion that we can connect a punishment through the time conjugations of our language doesn't mean that works and certainly doesn't mean we are superior beings in our ability to reason. Of course, that all goes out the window when dealing with a wife. Like Jeff Foxworthy intimates, a wife can remember something from a year ago and you are still paying for it. Smile

    Maybe a little more germaine is that while the current understanding and thinking from scientists who are actually undertaking the work, not just waiting for some indoctrinated undergrad to prove them right, is that there are commonalities in the communication urge trans-species, it is by no means a support of "energy" theories, or quantum consciousness. It is, to an extent, quite the extension of behaviorism. Simply observing what is and noting that, with the exception that they are including the notion of emotions, which appear to have a biological or neurological analog or cause or chemical cue. That is, they are not dismissing what we call emotion but are, in fact, saying, "well, what the heck is it? And where is it happening? What are the cellular or neuronal signs?"

    • Gold Top Dog

    Burl, your comment made me ask a question. Is my dog's singing truly a singular event within him or is my incessant singing around the house part of the universe he shares make it a more acceptable practice? I don't stop him from barking. Which may be philosophy. I feel if a person doesn't like barking dogs, well, don't own a dog. I know, that's awfully redneck of me. But then, I do live in Texas, though I visit Louisiana when I can, and I am quite partial to cajun food.