Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy

    • Gold Top Dog

     Hi Burl

     

    Merry Christmas !

    I guess that we could have a side discussion on this topic. I am quite taken with Panksepps view. He suggests that the golden emotions shared by al mammals are some what different. He says Seeking, Panic, Fear, Rage,Lust,Care, and Play. His distinctions are based on brain circuitry divisions. I have to say that after reading this, and going "well i 'll be ****",  i have over time accepted that it may be a very good division and encompass most understandings of drive.

    Of course emotions are not cognitive, but may be mediated by cognitive process. They are truely hard wired and interconnected.

    You are braver than me. I get through about a 1/3 of a page of codswallop and give up. I guess this morning i went out and told my four year old very fast motivated UD poodle that we had it all wrong and needed to start again. I swear that her Fear and Rage circuits fired all at once and blew her switchboard :))

     Here we have this thing called UDX. It isn't like yours at all. It is sort of a cross between Shutzhund and English obedience. They get to do things like find a seekback article with a decoy in the way, find the judge's scent on a rolled up towel, do 6 changes of postion including stands,

    do positions in motion, multiple blind retrieves of flat leather objects that are set up like your glove exercise in UD, and do a go out and recall. It is fun to teach, and quite complex. If postees are at all interested they can find the rules under http://www.ankc.org.au/Rules.aspx

    The point is i need every advantage i can get. i have a four year old MINI poodle, and i need to work to make her feel very comfortable working away from me. I have to have her believe emotionally that when she goes away from me it will be great. I will just keep on doing what i am doing because it works... I don't have a breed that will not withstand much error at all. MInd you she has twice taken Medallions away from German Shepard trials..

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Watch both speakers. 

     

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU-MU60opXI

    • Gold Top Dog

    HI Burl

    Thanks for that, that is great!  I do try to read ( and now hear ) a lot around these topics. Frankly it is daunting. I get a fraction short tempered with some of the baloney out there because it undermines the great work that these very talented people do.You can slag academics all you like but much of the world's innovation comes from them whether they be in public or private life.


    Do you mind if i share that link on a smaller list that i belong to?

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm spreading it to everyone I converse with!

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am much loved; I got Panksepp's textbook for Christmas! Cool In all honesty, I think that there has been work by academics in the past (like Panksepp) that contributes significantly to our understanding of what goes on outside of opperant conditioning and they have done a much better job than any dog trainers I know of. I find NDT is just vaguely like everything that has been said already by these people, but nowhere near as well developed or tested and NDT totally goes off the rails pretty fast with convoluted explanations of things that have already been explained in a much more straight-forward manner. I don't think NDT adds anything to the body of knowledge we have on emotions and I think it does detract from it, making it more complex while simultaneously claiming that it's actually simpler. No it's not. Simple is "dog associates stimulus with pleasure". I have seen that work over and over again. It's not bunk. It just doesn't fully explain what happens. No one can fully explain it yet, but I do enjoy Panksepp's efforts towards fully explaining it, and I think it's only a matter of time before we understand this as intimately as we understand, say, associative learning.

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    am much loved; I got Panksepp's textbook for Christmas! Cool In all honesty, I think that there has been work by academics in the past (like Panksepp) that contributes significantly to our understanding of what goes on outside of opperant conditioning and they have done a much better job than any dog trainers I know of. I find NDT is just vaguely like everything that has been said already by these people, but nowhere near as well developed or tested and NDT totally goes off the rails pretty fast with convoluted explanations of things that have already been explained in a much more straight-forward manner.

     

     

    Oh Corvus, you are so lucky! My book is well thumbed, one of those you dive in to when you aren't too sure about something. I think that if i had read "Affective Neuroscience" as a younger person, I would have changed careers. My only claim to fame now is that i was one of the first dog trainers to suggest that he had something to say to us. He does offer some concise explantions that seem to hold water. One of the things that i have been practising is to train my dogs emotionally. Now this means i have to be a little flexible. One example is play patterns. If i throw something for Luci, she runs off killing the thing having a right old time, but she has the smile ( Behavioural response to a positive affective state )and is pretty happy. I have change it so she doens't run off.

    My  boy would never do that. He picks it up, may be throws it in the air and comes back to me with the same obvious positive affective state.

    I have been teaching both of them weave poles lately, and they are learning at much the same rate but with very different play styles. 

    So in some ways life is simpler, i can forget about schedules and just watch for the affective  state.

    But while this seems easy, you have to teach it. I am shocked by the number of experienced trainers who miss obvious signs of stress with their dogs. May be in 10 years time we will be teaching this at puppy school??

     

    It is one of the hassles of being a bit all breeds orientated.

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    I think that there has been work by academics in the past (like Panksepp) that contributes significantly to our understanding of what goes on outside of opperant conditioning and they have done a much better job than any dog trainers I know of. I find NDT is just vaguely like everything that has been said already by these people, but nowhere near as well developed or tested and NDT totally goes off the rails pretty fast with convoluted explanations of things that have already been explained in a much more straight-forward manner.

     

     

    I have been pondering this phenomena, the opening up of markets to less solidly based pseudo theorists in my own industry. It seems that often you get disconnects between field people and some academics. If i went and explained how dogs when they track appear to break several laws of behaviour, i usually wind up getting a gob full fo EO,s which IMHO opinion  are very circular arguements set up to prove i was wrong in any case :)

    I am just waiting for my observations to be completey discounted by the behavourist maifa.:)

    In the electronics industry  metrics are often everything. We call them pissing contests, like little boys lest see who can go the furthest. I like winning these, i was born never to loose them. But i know that that is what they are.

    In Audio, we let a whole industry of cranks build up by not listening to the field guys, to not establishing metrics that meant anything to anyone. I can almost guarntee  that if i pick up a data sheet, some metrics that should be there aren't. And the product may well sound disgusting, and the poor field guy is going to get fed something like EO,s. and go away feeling dsissatisfied. So we have nongs suggesting really weird cables sound better and the orientation makes a diffence and i can't sometimes work out whether to laugh or cry .

    I guess we just have seen the dog behaviour scenario.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Panksepp: "We are bio-physical creatures that feel and think."

     

    This adequately summarizes the points I have tried to get across to Kevin and LCK.

    • Puppy

    Burl said: In light of this, would you please re-respond to my question just posed to you in my previous post, keeping it to perhaps 1/3 the length of your 1st response and focusing on the fundamental points being questioned?
    KB: I don’t know if this is the question you’re referring to: “But these are merely the description of the effects of physical phenomena on objects - there is no animal emotion in that summary.”

    My premise is that a state of attraction is emotion, emotion is an “energy” of attraction and it results from the confluence of all the physical and neurological energies of the body and brain, and these are very real energies indeed. The terms I'm using: Inflection, induction, acceleration, etc. are all but variants of an underlying state of attraction and which add energy, and thus pleasure, to the experience.

    Burl: 1)    There are 6 basic animal emotions shared by all higher order mammals: happiness, surprise, fear, sadness, disgust and anger.

    KB: Of these six, I submit that only happiness is emotion, nonetheless all of these are dependent on an underlying state of attraction, in other words they are not primal, fundamental building blocks of emotional experience. They are complex derivatives of a far simpler dynamic. Happiness is a function of “being in the flow,” if there is no underlying state of attraction then there can be no sense of flow and therefore no happiness. Disgust is based on perceiving essence without form, the human intellect being particularly vulnerable to this state given that it can’t well handle essence without form. The term “gust” refers to gustatory due to the involuntary importing of essence of stimuli (via the hunger circuitry which is the feedback mechanism of the body/mind) but then the essence that has been imported is not able to be emotionally digested, i.e. perceived as of being in some kind of form. Additionally, it’s interesting that disgust is modifiable given the criteria as to whether something can be “digested” or not. For example, trauma surgeons and homicide detectives become acclimated to a level of gore that would leave civilians doubled over. So as the surgeon or detective begins to find order through experience, they lose their sense of physical revulsion. On the other hand a state of attraction can never be extinguished in regards to any given thing, it can only be heightened and/or calmed. (This is due to the inverse relationship between emotion and stress.) Sadness requires a thought, what we construe as sadness in animals is enervation due to being out of the flow. Fear is the collapse of a state of attraction. Surprise is popping a surface state of attraction but nonetheless this then adds energy to a deeper one and so there is no wholesale collapse of a frame of reference, so it can be exciting and thrilling, unlike a profound spark of fear for example which is an overwhelmingly rapid sensation of collapse. Anger also is not emotion because it is person, goal, or time contextual (hence it requires thoughts) but like all the rest it is predicated on a state of attraction, in this case blocked attraction but not yet collapsed down to the core. In anger, stress/fear is coming up into the mind in order to sustain the state of attraction and hold off a collapse.


    Burl: “I never say emotions are thoughts.  They are not.  They color or add valuations to thoughts and sense impressions.  They are indeed embodied, hard-wired nervous system modes of response.”

    KB: Then please clarify by identifying such a valuation that isn’t a thought, and then secondly, if emotion is hard-wired, what then is the distinction between emotion and instinct?  

    Burl: Furthermore, even if you wish to maintain that, contrary to Darwin and Damasio, dogs do not share the same six animal emotions as humans, in order for a dog to 'feel' the physical experiences you describe above, as opposed to merely enduring them like a physical object, the dog must be consciously aware of its body.

    KB: A dog IS conscious of its physical body but only by virtue of a physical memory that must be triggered by external circumstances because the dog doesn’t have autonomous access, as neither do human beings, to the physical memory carried by the body/mind. Because the physical memories of puppies are basically in the womb and then in the early litter experiences which are predicated on flow, they are more outgoing than adults that have more physical memories of collapse and more indirect experiences of flow. So the dog is aware of its body through a state of resonance/disonance with its environment and this adds value (via inflection, induction, etc.) to states of attraction. Science will soon prove through epigenetics, that this is exactly how genes are shaped as well, not by random mutations but by emotion and its equal opposite form of stress as the organism interacts in the world, the animal mind operating via emotion as an auto-tuning/feedback dynamic..

    • Gold Top Dog

     I am not dogmatically attached to a specific identification of the basic emotions.  We see there are somewhat different lists by Darwin, Panksepp, and maybe Damasio (I am looking for his list).

     

    On how they are valuative, see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wup_K2WN0I

     

    In figuring out how best to deal with this or that experience an animal confronts in its environment, a more automatic system of emotions are employed.  

     

    Kevin: Panksepp and Solms are keen on the idea that animals are often in seeking mode, using emotions to help guide.   Philosophers of mind and cognitive scientists emphasize that consciousness requires intention - that is, we are consciously aware of some thing like a sight, a sound, a touch, a smell, a taste, or an internal feeling. The upshot of this is that our bodies are useless if they are not conscious. How is your take on unconscious animal law of attraction by comparison? 

     

    • Puppy

    So then we agree that these six are not basic, but are symptoms of something more fundamental, and therefore we need a new model.

    • Gold Top Dog

    KB: I was willing to give some benefit of the doubt, especially as you were providing your own words here, rather than is reading paraphrased or even modifying definitions from LCK, who seems, of all of us, most attracted to the definitions and models you have set forth.

    But I must strongly disagree with you on one point. And that is the evolution based on emotion. I am firmly in the camp of non-radial adaptation. That is, survival by random mutation. One version of a species or genus survives better than another because of a mutation that works well and that mutation is passed on.

    For example, of the primates, we seem to have the most forebrain activity and the highest evolved language of sound. As well as our ability to write, which creates, I think, new understandings of time. This allows us to not be relegated to living in the moment. That may or may not be what gives us survival. We are also the most vicious of the primates and of mammals in general. We not only kill other mammals for sport, we kill each other, too. Much of our industry and intelligence is centered on finding more efficient ways of killing each other. In so doing, it is somewhat of a cleansing process. In other animals, the slow and weak are weeded out by the hunting process from other predators. Where as man is an apex predator. Not bad for a functionally weak and slow ape, such as we are. Most any other primate species is faster and stronger than we are. So, even evolution is not about optimum, such as fastest and strongest. But it is about what mutations give a species an edge where other species do not survive as well or for as long. And I might be giving ourselves airs as man is not an old species. In geological time, we exist in less time than the blink of an eye. But, in that time, we have climbed to the top of the heap.

    We don't evolve something out of a need for it in the environment, whether that be skill or an emotion (radial adaptation.) We mutate and the mutation that fits best with the environment is the one that survives (non-radial adaptation.) And modernly, many who study evolution use the latter explanation because it fits better with the evidence. It also explains the predominence of Man. The mountain gorilla is farther along on the evolutionary track, completely suited for the environment it is in. Which leaves it vulnerable to environmental changes. It cannot adapt. It needs the habitat it is in or it dies. As opposed to Man, a truly vagabond species that adapts to whereever he is. But man, physically, is evolutionarily stunted. We are weak and relatively hairless, lacking speed, lacking the dentition to survive without the tools that we use. But, like wolves, another apex predator, we hunt in groups and utilize strategy and tools to bring down a prey larger than ourselves. Wolves have explosive speed to run down and gang-tackle a large prey. We, on the other hand, can make a .308 with scope and bring down the same animal from 600 yards away.

    I must agree with Corvus, in that the terminology used in your system is mostly a matter of semantics, for the processes have already been explained in simpler, more direct language elsewhere. Where I may differ from her is the caveat of whether that explains all or not. For then, we delve in to religious opinion, perhaps. The problem with religion as a scientific investigation is that it lacks falsifiability. Any question can be answered (paraphrased, regardless of religion) as "God's Will."

    What I find to be disingenuous at the worst and a stumbling of logic at best is the slippery use of falsifiability I have seen in your work, that of LCK, and that of Gallistel, a theorist LCK has referenced. You accept falsifiability for OC and behaviorism. You can say, "I did this and it didn't seem to follow the rules of OC, or OC worked backwards." Fair enough. Until further examination, at the outset, one can say the theory is "in trouble." That's falsifiability. But when NDT is presented with the same test, we seem to get any amount of crawdadding, extra verbage of different definitions, even explanations that don't pan out in our own anecdotal experience. For example, the notion that the supine dog is superior to the dog standing over it. What about the situation most anyone of us has seen where in the standing dog has nipped the one on the ground and that one on the ground yelps until released? How does that yelp of pain signify social dominance? And, by that definition, when a dam is holding one of her unruly pups to the ground, is that pup superior to his mother by means of the position? That's not to say that a dog that lowers itself is not showing respect and position. For the pup who changes his behavior, he is released. But showing respect and being the authority are two different things, even if they coincide in time.

    For many a trainer who trains with positive rewards, as well as those who train with corrections, the standing position is one of dominance or superiority. It is the primary reason for having a problem with Cesar Milan scruffing and pinning a dog. For the dog being pinned is not showing respect, he or she is being attacked by another creature that assumes superiority. For those of us who don't believe in physically confronting a dog, such a tactic is considered counter-productive. I am not making this a debate about CM ( and I understand he has been changing as he progresses), just using it to show that the experience of the rest of the world, both corrective trainers and rewarding trainers, and any variation in between, is to avoid the confrontational pin, which is not to be confused with a play pin, where dogs can interchange roles of who is down or up. I could have just as easily mentioned Koehler, etc. Reward trainers and handlers can also use the pin but it is a physical hold, not a training tool, just as an animal control officer may use a catch pole in an emergency but it is not a training tool. It is traumatic to the dog but not as traumatic as not addressing the situation wherein it is needed.

    When a wolf cub lays down before his father (for a true wolf pack is a family unit, as shown by L. David Mech, who spends more time in the wilderness than behind a computer keyboard), it is a sign of respect to the elder, not the cub showing superiority. The cub could choose not to show the respect and continue in his own path and perhaps suffer the consequences. It's the equivalent of saying yes, sir or even uncle, whether the superior is father's brother or not.

    I understand the value of different mental imagery to accomplish something, whether the image is accurate or not. But because success has been achieved does not mean the image is a true representation. Here's an example. I sing. Functionally, I am a tenor with some baritone. And that depends on the criteria. In some circles, your classical fach (bass, baritone, tenor) is defined by your lowest usable note. Well, that also depends on usable. I can hit some low baritone notes but not with lots of power. Another definition is that you are the range at which you have the most dynamics (soft to loud) and the most number of usable notes involving those criteria. Ergo, I am a tenor.

    Anyway, here is my mental imagery for a high note. I used to imagine it as the folds (what most people call the vocal cords) as being contracted to create a small opening. Other variations, such as the method taught by Jaime Vendera (you have seen him on "Mythbusters" breaking glass with his voice is "zipping up the folds" as one would close a zipper almost all the way. But, I also have the info provided by Steven Fraser, a man who has encyclopedic knowledge of vocal anatomy, having been a classical singer, himself. Here is what actually happens. For higher notes, the folds actually stretch and thin out. By the are in close proximity, with only the leading edges of the folds vibrating, like a guitar string that is tighten by the tuning peg. Here's where the imagery melds. Like a higher note on an instrument, slightly increased force is needed. This is in the form of consistent air pressure, just a smidge more than when speaking. And the throat is configured in a way that is conducive to resonance. Classically, it is the singer's formant, modernly, we call it twang. And the actual resonance happens in the soft palate, in subtle locations behind the sinus, not through the nose. In fact, when I hit a really high note, it feels like it is vibrating behind my eyes. Hence, the misnomer, head voice. Just as, a low note feels like it rumbles the chest, hence the misnomer, chest voice. All resonance actually happens in the head, from just above the larynx to the base of the sinus. Different pitches require different resonating shapes because an amplified note is actually due to the second harmonic doubling back on the fundamental in the same waveform at the same frequency, causing an amplitude increase of that pitch, more than doubling in dB's. Or, as I like to put it, as a layman, a high note is really a small note that is well-resonated. My current imagery is that the folds a very close together and thin, with just a little bit of them vibrating. But you see how my initial imagery was nothing like the reality, even though that misguided imagery has allowed me to sing the high note in Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody." That wrong imagery has allowed me to hit the high note "Dream On" by Aerosmith. But because I have been successful at singing in the tenor range doesn't make that old imagery accurate or a viable means of teaching, per se.

    Same can go for dog behavior nomenclature and models. Many a thinker has a problem with the energy and emotion model, not because such things don't exist, but the terms are too vague and subject to individual interpretation and the goal of semantics and descriptive language should be to clarify, not obfuscate.

    Nor is necessarily bad to use terms of energy and emotion but it depends on how they are defined.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kevin Behan

    So then we agree that these six are not basic, but are symptoms of something more fundamental, and therefore we need a new model.

     

     

    If you watched the vid I posted of Panksepp and Solms, I am sure you would agree that these highly trained neuroscientists have a very comprehensive and easy to understand description of animal behavior with its heavy importance placed on their 7 basic affects (emotions).   

    • Gold Top Dog

    And I need to make a technical correction. One that you, Burl, given enough time, would have caught me on. In the singing analogy, the second harmonic is not the same frequency but it is related to the fundamental.

    And to continue. As pitch increases within a certain resonating shape, the 2nd harmonic will get out of alignment with the fundamental, requiring a change of resonating space to accomodate a re-alignment of shifting fundamental and 2nd harmonic. And this happens at different places for different vowel sounds. And this is a matter of mechanics. For example, all the highest notes will have the vowel sound 'ah' because structurally, the resonating chamber of the highest notes and the vowel sound ah are the same. Dropped jaw and resonation behind the sinus. The dropped jaw, initialized in the beginning exercises as a mouth open smile, physically structure the throat to create the twang configuration. If anyone has ever seen Axl Rose grimace, it is not for visual effect alone, it is to align his throat muscles to achieve the proper resonating shape. When you see an opera singer smiling, it is not because he is necessarily happy, it is because the action creates the shape required. This flip point where resonance must change is traditionally called passagio. And it happens at different pitches for different vowel sounds. Some traditional vowel sounds for changing from one resonating shape to another are such as 'uh' and 'ay.' These certain vowel sounds also facilitate the onset of phonation easier at certain ranges. In the Alice in Chains song "Man in the Box," the phrase, "Jesus Christ" is actually sung, jay-ay-ee-zuhs Chra- i -st." But all the listener hears is the final note, not the onset. All you can remember is "Jesus Christ." But, an inaccurate method of imagery might say, be nasal and whiny and sing like a whining cat.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Hey Ron

     You're giving credit for understanding where it isn't due...I know squat about acoustics. 

    I must say that I am quite taken with Panksepp and Solms' affective neuroscience, and find it rewarding and fitting that Panksepp works from a vet school environment...this vindicates my initial attraction to Whitehead's esoteric process philosophy which has as its premise the Darwinian continuum of animal mentality and so a Humean pragmatic certainty that we could learn how animals experience reality by analogies with how we do the same. 

     

    My ultimate concern is to hold this continuum thru to theology, so that what you say of mankind must apply too of its relational non-human kin.  But that's mostly fodder for arguments elsewhere.  I find it amusing at how difficult it is for religious dogmatists arguing that man's rationality warrants only to him a shot at eternity, yet it is this very rationality that must be made subservient to the nobler affective emotions that are so perfectly present in our pets.