Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy

Hi

I am out of here. No point at all debating with people that can't acknowledge their own stuff and can't identify the truth in others . It is like charging at a brick wall at 100Mph. Pointless damaging exercise. I accept that in general Kevin comes across as an ok person and i won't question his motives. I won't say the same about that Corgi whatever.

 Enough science is in, more is on the way not to mention we all have direct access to observing dog behavior under an infinite range of circumstances. Interestingly, science is only now catching up to the question of emotion in animals. Welcome. So the question now is the model with which the science and behavior is to be interpreted. I am pointing out the inherent self-contradictions in the existing models. 

JackieG

corgidog

why should any grown dog be interested in the sound of a click? it's a little diminutive of them, don't you think?

 

This has to be one of the most laughable statements, among many in this ridiculous thread, that I have ever read.  

LOL, I have three dogs here who would agree with you, Jackie.  In fact, they are interested in anything that predicts a resource that they want.  Um, let's see... cookie jar lid clunk, can opener sound, crinkling bags, refrigerator door opening, the list goes on.  Humans, incidentally, have the very same interest in noises acting as predictors...pop top can sound, farty noise from the whipped cream container, sizzling grill noises. 

spiritdogs

LOL, I have three dogs here who would agree with you, Jackie.  In fact, they are interested in anything that predicts a resource that they want.  Um, let's see... cookie jar lid clunk, can opener sound, crinkling bags, refrigerator door opening, the list goes on.

Peanut does those things too; she must be better trained than I thought!

Burl

spiritdogs

LOL, I have three dogs here who would agree with you, Jackie.  In fact, they are interested in anything that predicts a resource that they want.  Um, let's see... cookie jar lid clunk, can opener sound, crinkling bags, refrigerator door opening, the list goes on.

 

Peanut does those things too; she must be better trained than I thought

Mine being "poofy" poodles of course just love the sound of air dryers.:) Actually seriously, i spent ages "conditioning" Luci so that she would not be scared or worried by grooming. She loves being groomed because of that conditioning. So we trained context to be something different...oops we can not believe OC or CC models at all. :)

When i first started clicker training I thought that it was the answer to everything. You know, the new convert. Happens in all fields. Even now i have clickers everywhere. I am not as cool as some of my fellow trainers who can imitate clickers with their mouths. Within a few months i had problems with doing a stand for exam. We always would say that Labs were "over friendly" and this trainer said..he is anxious. And i learnt to counter condition. And it worked. And once he was happy i used a clicker so that he would push back in the stand.

A mentor at the time said there is this hierachy emotional, classical, operant. I guess that Trish McConnell stands out as one of the more populist authors who have dealt very well with these issues. Of late, i have learnt that emotions and behaviour are a little more linked. Oh and i still use a clicker. I am going to give a talk soon on "Yes dogs have emotions and i still use a clicker"... Gives me an idea for my next article!!

 I am synthesizing what we discussed here and reading elsewhere.  I am thinking we should raise our dogs just like we raise children.  Is this what Ian Dunbar is saying?

corgidog

clearly you missed the point. i stated that you can condition them to the sound of click. they are not born with a response to a click, hence the conditioning. however, every puppy is born with an innate drive to bite. in ndt you work with this drive rather than shaping their behavior with a plastic clicker.

The fact that you must "work with" in either case occurs to me.  At some point, if you are training a dog or any creature to do something, you will need to use some type of signal, even if it is body language.  Right?

Does a dog have the same passion to bite as it ages?

Burl

corgidog

clearly you missed the point. i stated that you can condition them to the sound of click. they are not born with a response to a click, hence the conditioning. however, every puppy is born with an innate drive to bite. in ndt you work with this drive rather than shaping their behavior with a plastic clicker.

 

 

The fact that you must "work with" in either case occurs to me.  At some point, if you are training a dog or any creature to do something, you will need to use some type of signal, even if it is body language.  Right?

 

Does a dog have the same passion to bite as it ages?

The idea that all dogs are born to bite is just not true and causes many dogs and owners grief. Many gun dogs have lost the instinctive drive to bite, and instead have a desire to chase and retrieve. It is their instinct above all else. I get p****d with all types of trainers that insist on one style of play that just doesn't suit the dog. It happens a hell of a lot in agility. If a dog gets joy from retrieving something then guess what i will be doing... Often we have dog breeds and indidviduals that just don't dig that kind of play. You work with what you have

What  we do know about the bite is that appears to be a bit more neutral to a mammal's state than first thought . it makes evolutionary sense that this is so. Bite== no big deal mostly reflexive action.

I also wonder whether observing some village dogs that high prey drive might have been a man made invention in our domesticated dogs.

I personally have severe doubts whether dogs go into true prey drive around their owners. I think that what we see is a type of ritualised play that includes social aspects.

I would apprecate Corgidog that you respect my use of the word "think" . It is a subtle but neccessary distinction *removed by Moderator - rude and insulting*

corgidog

yes, but there are universal prey and predatory movements. stand still and tall and point your finger at a dog = predatory. diminish your stature and flail your arms = prey. without any training any dog will be attracted/repelled by such movements. we intuitively pat out leg to bring a dog toward us. interestingly, so does the mother grouse.

not true with a click. it's arbitrary and has no meaning to a dog

OMG nearly a point of agreement about body language! Someone tape this it may never happen again!! "I think that many people still have a residual fear of dogs that they don't wish to acknowledge and it is best to quietly work on this without naming it. It often results in body langugae which is off putting to dogs. I am not so keen to attach prey and predatory as their are one or two other reasons IMHO.

I think that the fact that the click has no meaning until we give it one is huge. It is why it is so powerful. I am an ecclectic trainer. I use body language cues, clickers etc.

My main criticism of some comptemporary clicker solutions is that some of the rote teaching plans think human rather than dog. It particually happens with scenting and distance exercises. We need to read science, observe very carefully, and then act accordingly. Not many teach retrieves for "high drive" dogs the way i do. It is extremely quick and joyful. Many of these dogs come to a complete stall under more universal training schemes. We need to work out what is hard for the dog not what is hard for the human and shape accordingly. Some things are truely weird. IMHO For many dogs , initally finding and picking something up close to them is meaningless. Now put some distance on it, and the picture changes. It has meaning.

Some of the most powerful training i have seen is clicker plus drive training, a lot from some contemporary Shutzhund trainers.

 I am adding this for Corgidog. I am trying to show you that many other trainers are aware of these issues but come from a different viewpoint and extend the discussion .It seems like that  unless i do this you miss the point and come up with BS as to what i am saying.

 My "theory" is that the oral urge evolves into the sexual urge so that yes it is ever present and never lessens and that it is manifested in a dog's amazing degree of physical sensuality, its capacity to enjoy tactile arousal without resorting to an instinct (as a cat must do when you arouse it too much and it either bolts away or clasps with its jaws and claws), and that furthermore, this sensuality is a higher level of information as in how to align with a "complex" object of attraction.

corgidog

yes, but there are universal prey and predatory movements. stand still and tall and point your finger at a dog = predatory. diminish your stature and flail your arms = prey. without any training any dog will be attracted/repelled by such movements. we intuitively pat out leg to bring a dog toward us. interestingly, so does the mother grouse.

not true with a click. it's arbitrary and has no meaning to a dog

Of course a click has no inherent meaning - it doesn't to humans either.  We simply employ it as a tool of communication when we associate it with something the dog likes.  Of course, it's incorrect to say that a click has no meaning *once it's been conditioned* but there are a lot of other things that would have no meaning to dogs without some association being made, and to some dogs the pat on the leg is ignored.  Dogs unquestionably do have some grasp of human gestures, but may elect to ignore or respond to them just the same.  Interestingly, when I point my finger at some dogs, they will stop, but it's also possible to train a dog to sit or to back up when you point, and once you do, the gesture loses its efficacy as a "predatory" suggestion.  (I prefer the word "threatening" to "predatory", since body language is nuanced and a threatening behavior does not always indicate "I want to eat you for supper."  Sometimes, it just means "Put some distance between us.";)

I agree with PoodleOwned that some dogs do not care for toys or that kind of play, and yet are successfully and well trained.  I submit that my two girls both have an excellent retrieve, but I taught Sioux using back chaining with the clicker, because her inherent desire was to spit the darn thing out.  Sequoyah learned almost effortlessly, because she couldn't wait for me to toss it again.

 This field may address what is being said http://www.umweb.org/zs/intro.PDF