Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy

 The reason I prefer the term predatory over threatening, is that the latter is predicated on time, in other words, that there is the perception of a future negative consequence impending. ("If I stay here and that comes near, then I could be hurt.";) So the term threat is a very complex construct and can't be the simplest definition of such body language. Whereas I am maintaining that there is a direct and immediate visceral impact without thoughts whatsoever, and that this is universal across all species of animals, by such body language (which doesn't mean I'm saying it can't be transformed to either a neutral or even something pleasurable, and then we can discuss what specifically is that modifying agency but for now I think we should leave that question aside). I believe that the simplest way to define this predatory aspect, or threatening gesture as you prefer, (upright, motionless, eyes, a high-rate-of-change beyond individual's capacity, focused intensity) is that it reflects the dog's perceptual state right back at it, and is perceived as either a source of resistance or an outright interruption of its mode of experience in that particular situation. This "reflective" aspect that is gumming up the works is evidenced by a dog's visible "inflation" (air in lungs, tail rising and inflating, stiffening of movements) of its body because the sense of forward emotional momentum is being arrested in the dog's perception of its circumstances. It's just as if water is building up behind a dam.

I think that animals perceive threats, and their responses are either involuntary, planned, or a bit of both.  Simple.  No flowery language required to state that any mammal might have a response from the autonomic nervous system in that instance.  No dams or water involved - just cortisol, adrenaline, etc.  Your verbosity is cumbersome and really doesn't add to understanding, but JMHO.  I don't think that fight or flight is dependent upon whether an animal perceives that the other animal is planning to eat it, hit it, or rape it.  It happens because of fear that can be brought on by the other animal's behavior, which may or may not have anything to do with how predatory it is.  I'd bet that you would feel that little sinking in the pit of your stomach, and have a "reflective aspect" too, if my horse kicked a water bucket out of your hand, but you wouldn't expect him to eat you right afterward, despite the fact that he could easily kill you if the kick were well placed and landed on your gut instead of the bucket.

By the way, you call your method "natural."  So, does that mean you train puppies without leashes and collars as some of us do?  Interesting that the first negative comment on Amazon about your book says that you rely "heavily" on choke, prong collars and the reader stated a tacit acceptance of electronic collars.  True or not true?

 I've viewed this discussion a number of times. For some reason, I have found it compelling but not pleasant to watch.  I have a couple of degrees from a real university, lots of classes in psych and anthropology, a large vocabulary, and read at an advanced level.  I have found this confusing and difficult to follow, as well as leading to no conclusion in the near future.  What am I missing that I need to understand this discussion?  Or am I understanding it properly.

DougB

 I've viewed this discussion a number of times. For some reason, I have found it compelling but not pleasant to watch.  I have a couple of degrees from a real university, lots of classes in psych and anthropology, a large vocabulary, and read at an advanced level.  I have found this confusing and difficult to follow, as well as leading to no conclusion in the near future.  What am I missing that I need to understand this discussion?  Or am I understanding it properly.

Hi DougB

I guess that it concerns me that people may feel that that is the way to train and be put of by such a smoke and mirrors system.. and not train. And / or the dog gets put down. I am a pretty straightforward kind of trainer but have a ball. My dogs do to... If i was thinking in this kind of langauge i would stop paralyazed at the side of the park. I think your copied rules are just the best :) My cat has told my dogs to agree. I reckon that i have been around the moon and stars and now back again for the third time...and they don't give up.. The test for me is to be polite. It is HARD...

 Hi Spiritdogs

spiritdogs

I think that animals perceive threats, and their responses are either involuntary, planned, or a bit of both.  Simple.  No flowery language required to state that any mammal might have a response from the autonomic nervous system in that instance.  No dams or water involved - just cortisol, adrenaline, etc.  Your verbosity is cumbersome and really doesn't add to understanding, but JMHO.  I don't think that fight or flight is dependent upon whether an animal perceives that the other animal is planning to eat it, hit it, or rape it.  It happens because of fear that can be brought on by the other animal's behavior, which may or may not have anything to do with how predatory it is.  I'd bet that you would feel that little sinking in the pit of your stomach, and have a "reflective aspect" too, if my horse kicked a water bucket out of your hand, but you wouldn't expect him to eat you right afterward, despite the fact that he could easily kill you if the kick were well placed and landed on your gut instead of the bucket.

Sounds good to me..

spiritdogs

By the way, you call your method "natural."  So, does that mean you train puppies without leashes and collars as some of us do?  Interesting that the first negative comment on Amazon about your book says that you rely "heavily" on choke, prong collars and the reader stated a tacit acceptance of electronic collars.  True or not true?

I am concerned. I have heard these rumours but kept them out of the discussion.

Often the big split here is on who will use Aversives quite heavily and who won't. I fall nearly entirely in the latter camp, but am also aware that there is a balance somewhere with rights to make decisions for your dog somewhere in the mix.

I teach my puppies pretty much on a voluntary basis so much so that i find it difficult to do lead work. it really puts the pressure on the trainer to get to be highly rewarding and is challenging. With some dogs I am so flakey that i will stand back and let the dog work out where the reward is... Even if they appear to be avoiding the exercise such as SD. It sure makes them relaxed, thinking and desperate to do the job. I think many trainers of all ilks jump in too soon and help the dog out. I thought that was pretty natural.

I am concerned about the collar around the dobe that Kevin was working. We pretty much know for sure that so called balanced systems (reward punishment ) are really confusing to the dog. Even with very powerful and sometimes "high prey drive" working line GSDs, i prefer to work with a fur saver that is locked for safety's sake. If i don't have to then i don't. I don't know about the US, but most dobes i have met are a quite a bit softer than working line GSDs.

If Kevin confirms the  e collar situation, there is a little science that many may like to consider over and above it's use over other Aversives. Until then i will keep my mouth shut :)

 <<"By the way, you call your method "natural."  So, does that mean you train puppies without leashes and collars as some of us do?  Interesting that the first negative comment on Amazon about your book says that you rely "heavily" on choke, prong collars and the reader stated a tacit acceptance of electronic collars.  True or not true?">>

By natural let me put it this way, I don't mean instinct, I mean Temperament and I mean energy.
Also, I  hope we can get back to zoosemiotics because I don't think a moral debate will prove fruitful. I assume that those who disagree with me and may use methods I don't agree with, are good people and want to help dogs. NDT does not discourage people from training, it's just a different way of addressing the problems but with the same goal.

Quickly about collars. It doesn't matter to a dog about the collar. What matters is whether drive was increased or blocked. If you kiss a dog and it construes it as a block, then the dog experiences a shock. If you "correct" a dog and he feels release, then it is a plus. Most people use corrections to dampen their dog's energy. I use "corrections" to add to dogs energy. Therefore, what praise and corrections should both have in common is adding energy (enthusiasm/spark/joie de joie, etc.) to the dog's drive. Prong collars are better at adding energy to a dog's drive then choke or flat collars but has to be done right and is dependant on dog's emotional capacity. In regards to electric collars I know some dogs freaked out by invisible fence, others that live for the shock they have come to associate with deer. The application in both cases was wrong. That said, dogs today are far too "electric" and electric collars are part of that trend. Meanwhile, I think the current marketplace is overly fixated on being positive and dog owners have gotten the memo and are ridiculously positive no-matter-what and are actually inhibiting Drive with praise out of context with emotion and not developing their dog's temperament.  Then they resort to quick fix methods when their pet freaks out over nothing. The problem in the modern paradigm is that folks think you should avoid stress at all costs, I feel dogs have to learn to positively work with stress. The capacity to do so in my view is the function of Drive and sexuality.

I don't use leads or collars with pups except for necessary handling situations and acclimation, and I don't say the word no to pup for first year. My expression is that it takes a million "Yeses" to get to the first "No."   

<<"I think that animals perceive threats, and their responses are either involuntary, planned, or a bit of both.  Simple.">>

I don't see how (planned + involuntary) is simple. It's complex and calls for a deeper examination.

<<"No flowery language required to state that any mammal might have a response from the autonomic nervous system in that instance.  No dams or water involved - just cortisol, adrenaline, etc.">>

Yes these things are the material nuts and bolts of a given response, but they're just mechanics, they don't get to the root of the response, merely how it is physically implemented.  And why do these mechanics make the dog feel (and look) as if it's pressurized, why not a straightforward response, like an insect, stimulus/response mechanic? You kick a ant hill, they get agitated and every ant does its job without hesitation, some attack, some grab the eggs, some start rebuilding, bing, bing, bing. The reason of course with an animal is that body language is part of a two way exchange. This universal form of communication is more important than survival or reproduction. It's more important that "something" is transmitted and received.   

This would be a perfect place for an experiment. Once all the brain chemistry is mapped out, then three or four dogs that live together should be tested and one will find, I predict, that when presented with various stark stimuli, that each one experiences a unique ratio of hormones/neuro-chemicals as a slice within a larger spectrum. In other words, their endocrine systems have become synchronized. (This synchronization is already being discovered in regards to heart rates.) Furthermore, they will discover deeper and deeper cycles of hormonal blends and so the question isn't the hormones, but what is doing the synchronization? My candidate is Temperament.

<<"if my horse kicked a water bucket out of your hand, but you wouldn't expect him to eat you right afterward, despite the fact that he could easily kill you if the kick were well placed and landed on your gut instead of the bucket.">>

A predatory aspect is not an intention to eat something. (Neither in my view is predatory behavior.) What's happened is that your horse has interrupted my perception of flow. (I was only trying to give him some water.)

 Also, I  hope we can get back to zoosemiotics

 I wish I knew more about it, as it gets at the heart of any relationship.  Semiotics co-originated with the American pragmatist philosopher, Charles Peirce.  Process philosopher/theologian and Whitehead colleague, Charles Hartshorne, compiled Peirce's papers and may have been influenced heavily by his work.  Hartshorne wrote a book on creature emotions/feelings (prehensions in process thought) and Hartshorne was an accomplished ornithologist, having written a very important book on why birds sing (he concluded it was for the pure pleasure of it!)

Anyway, semiotics has been used as the basis of a whole metaphysical paradigm for how evolution happens for organisms.  

Any clicker trainers ever encounter the term semiotic, or perhaps dyadic sign?

another link  http://www.olinda.com/VC/lectures/Semiotics/semiotics.htm

 The more I refresh myself with what little I knew of semiotics, the more applicability to dogs it seems to have.

Deely is a big name in the field, and this is a chapter from his online book  - Ch 5 is about animal communication:

 I'm going to have to rely on your translation.

 I cannot understand it at all - why I never got far into it in the past, I guess.

 OTOH, Deely does make use of the 'Umvelt' concept that Dr. Horowitz, a canine ethologist, brings up in her work, which struck me as being right-on in assessing where we and where dogs are both in the world, but with different sensory 'filters'.

Just from the PBS vid on your NDT page, we see that dog barking is signaling - language.

Kevin Behan

Quickly about collars. It doesn't matter to a dog about the collar. What matters is whether drive was increased or blocked. If you kiss a dog and it construes it as a block, then the dog experiences a shock. If you "correct" a dog and he feels release, then it is a plus. Most people use corrections to dampen their dog's energy. I use "corrections" to add to dogs energy. Therefore, what praise and corrections should both have in common is adding energy (enthusiasm/spark/joie de joie, etc.) to the dog's drive. Prong collars are better at adding energy to a dog's drive then choke or flat collars but has to be done right and is dependant on dog's emotional capacity. In regards to electric collars I know some dogs freaked out by invisible fence, others that live for the shock they have come to associate with deer. The application in both cases was wrong. That said, dogs today are far too "electric" and electric collars are part of that trend. Meanwhile, I think the current marketplace is overly fixated on being positive and dog owners have gotten the memo and are ridiculously positive no-matter-what and are actually inhibiting Drive with praise out of context with emotion and not developing their dog's temperament.  Then they resort to quick fix methods when their pet freaks out over nothing. The problem in the modern paradigm is that folks think you should avoid stress at all costs, I feel dogs have to learn to positively work with stress. The capacity to do so in my view is the function of Drive and sexuality.

a lot of what you say here i could agree with. But the normal pradigm of OC would help understand why a correction may seem to intensify than reduce a behaviour. Many of us so called positive trainers use "proofing". If you don't work with your dog under harder circumstances then expect them to fail when a bit of pressur goes on. if you look at Chris Bach for example she uses lead pressure to "proof" dogs. I don't like prong or correction collars a whole lot, yet goons will freely suggest that i use them with my dogs :(  In fact one of the local goons suggested that this be done with a 15 week old mini poodle.  You must be joking.

E collars have some complications. It is almost certain that the brain shuts down for a few milliseconds during every shock and that it may well hinder rather than aid learning. It may also create unexpected side effects. These devices should be used with a hell of a lot of caution.

I am concerned with the underlying temperament with many field Labs that come from the states. I don't know how they got like this, but a few seem to be way too hard.You almost need to use e collars on them.. Some are truely horrible.

We have discussed everything else that you have suggested ad infinitum. In fact i bougt up body langauage and smell as candidates for communication way in the beginnings of these posts. We have also looked at several other explantions already. I will keep to the several other explanations, they seem more likely. Again you have plucked a fact out that doesn't quite fit these circumstances. (The heart beat stuff)

 I agree about the lab situation. They are being bred to excel in the field trials under highly stylized rules and so the trainers and breeders have perfected the system and it's as if the dogs are selected for electronic stimulation. It's not like in the 60/70/80's when a working dog could be counted on to have a stronger disposition than the show ring or pet counterpart. Today all the breeds seem more "electric" if you know what I mean. 

 Great Panksepp podcast asserts emotions come from our pre cortical brain.

Kevin Behan

Cats get hungry and I don't see too many cat owners playing tug.

Irrelevant comparison and composition error.  Try again.