Help, Bella attacked Amber

spiritdogs

we should be advising caution until the dogs have actually been seen directly by a professional

Thats exactly what i said since page one, i dont know why the word "blithely" came out. On another forum a lady was having 2 Golden retrivers, 6 months old brothers that "every time they see each other they attack", she said that she bougth ecollars, taught them a warning command and had to use the collar a few times. She reports today that that both dogs are living happy, "playing and sleeping together nonstop". It took her one month to achieve this. I can PM the link if someone wants to argue the methods with her.

I didnt use ecollars but (as i mention before) i worked with the same situation in the past and was sucessfull as well.

Some people dont like to use that road but sometimes thats the ONLY road. Those of us that have been there and sucessfully get rid of the problem can tell the OP that it can happen. So once again:

Please use caution and get professional help from a trainer that was sucessfull on rehabilitate dogs like this before. Certainly you dont want to use a trainer that was never successfull to fix a problem like this, regardless if its a professional or not. Just like you wont go to a surgeon who has never been succesfull on surgery even when he/she has a degree.

espencer

On another forum a lady was having 2 Golden retrivers, 6 months old brothers

Males, and not a breed known for same sex aggro.  Just sayin'

Chuffy

Males, and not a breed known for same sex aggro.  Just sayin'

What are you saying? 

espencer

spiritdogs

we should be advising caution until the dogs have actually been seen directly by a professional

Thats exactly what i said since page one, i dont know why the word "blithely" came out. On another forum a lady was having 2 Golden retrivers, 6 months old brothers that "every time they see each other they attack", she said that she bougth ecollars, taught them a warning command and had to use the collar a few times. She reports today that that both dogs are living happy, "playing and sleeping together nonstop". It took her one month to achieve this. I can PM the link if someone wants to argue the methods with her.

I didnt use ecollars but (as i mention before) i worked with the same situation in the past and was sucessfull as well.

Some people dont like to use that road but sometimes thats the ONLY road. Those of us that have been there and sucessfully get rid of the problem can tell the OP that it can happen. So once again:

Please use caution and get professional help from a trainer that was sucessfull on rehabilitate dogs like this before. Certainly you dont want to use a trainer that was never successfull to fix a problem like this, regardless if its a professional or not. Just like you wont go to a surgeon who has never been succesfull on surgery even when he/she has a degree.

First of all, no behaviorist that I know uses e-collars on aggression cases, and yet they have success anyway.  The larger issue is always owner compliance.  If an owner cannot, does not, or will not, comply with a treatment regimen, it doesn't matter what a behaviorist suggests.  Some continually make the erroneous assumption that positive trainers cannot rehabilitate dogs that have aggression problems, and that is not the case.  But, sometimes, you get owners who, for one reason or another, do not wish to live with the liability that an aggressive dog presents, or they don't feel able to do the protocols that are required, on a day to day basis.  So, there are times when the fate of a dog has little to do with the skill of the trainer or behaviorist, and more to do with the owner's abilities or desires.  Lifestyle is important when making those decisions.  It's easier to manage an aggressive dog on large acreage with few guests, but not so easy if you are a busy housewife with four kids under the age of 10 living in the city.  So, all cases are different.  Trainers who take cases that are beyond the scope of their knowledge are not behaving responsibly, any more than people on a forum would be for offering advice to someone with a truly aggressive dog if they have little to no experience rehabbing lots of dogs with similar issues.  

 For those who like stats: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogaggressionstudy.pdf

Chuffy

espencer

On another forum a lady was having 2 Golden retrivers, 6 months old brothers

 

Males, and not a breed known for same sex aggro.  Just sayin'

 They were also still puppies (littermates - hopefully the owner has been educated about littermate syndrome and how to prevent itbut cosnideirng they are "playing and sleeping together" all the time I doubt it). And we don't really know the extent of the "aggression" in this case either. I have had pet owners come to class convinced their perfectly normal 10 week old puppy was "attacking" them and was "aggressive".

spiritdogs

any more than people on a forum would be for offering advice to someone with a truly aggressive dog if they have little to no experience rehabbing lots of dogs with similar issues.

spiritdogs

 For those who like stats: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogaggressionstudy.pdf

"Comparisons between dog and wolf behavior may lead to improved treatment and resolution of aggression between dogs"

Interesting

AgileGSD

but cosnideirng they are "playing and sleeping together" all the time I doubt it). And we don't really know the extent of the "aggression" in this case either. I have had pet owners come to class convinced their perfectly normal 10 week old puppy was "attacking" them and was "aggressive".

I can PM you the link and you can ask her as this is not the case we need to review.

*removed by moderator, off-topic*

Regardless the variables it all comes down to the dogs doing what the owner allows them to do

denise m

Chuffy

Males, and not a breed known for same sex aggro.  Just sayin'

 

What are you saying? 

 

That this has little relevance to the topic at hand, which is regarding females, one of which may well have same sex aggression (a breed trait, and not necessarily something you can train out... think like teaching a Bloodhound not to sniff, or a water-loving lab not to enjoy swimming), AND is a good deal larger and heavier than the other.  Females are known for being harder to rehab in this cases than males.  Some breeds are just intolerant of other dogs, or other dogs of the same sex sharing their living space.  These are thing which make the OPs situation more difficult, and these complications are absent in the case with the GRs.  As someone else pointed out, the GRs are still puppies, if reaching adolesence....  And another pertinent point, neither of the GRs has a significant size/weight/strength advantgae over the other, meaning that if the two DO come to blows again, at least the dog being attacked has a reasonable chance of defending himself.

Chuffy

denise m

Chuffy

Males, and not a breed known for same sex aggro.  Just sayin'

 

What are you saying? 

 

 

That this has little relevance to the topic at hand, which is regarding females, one of which may well have same sex aggression (a breed trait, and not necessarily something you can train out... think like teaching a Bloodhound not to sniff, or a water-loving lab not to enjoy swimming), AND is a good deal larger and heavier than the other.  Females are known for being harder to rehab in this cases than males.  Some breeds are just intolerant of other dogs, or other dogs of the same sex sharing their living space.  These are thing which make the OPs situation more difficult, and these complications are absent in the case with the GRs.  As someone else pointed out, the GRs are still puppies, if reaching adolesence....  And another pertinent point, neither of the GRs has a significant size/weight/strength advantgae over the other, meaning that if the two DO come to blows again, at least the dog being attacked has a reasonable chance of defending himself.

Quite true, and as AgileGSD pointed out on another thread, spaying rarely makes anything better between females.  So, one tool that you can use with males, i.e. neutering, makes that situation a bit different.  One thing that we should not lose sight of is that it really is up to the owner to follow the training or behavior protocol, or even just a management protocol.  Trainers, behaviorists, and vets (in the case of medically related aggression) can tell an owner what to do, but if the owner doesn't follow through, the intervention will not work.  The natural inclination is to do what our OP's BF did - try again.  But, for some dogs, that is a fatal error.  Sure, it's true that some dogs will have an incident and then never have another.  It's just as true that some dogs will have an incident, then finish the job on another occasion.  All I know is that once serious punctures take place, statistics are not as much in your favor as if the dogs were not puncturing one another. 

 Thanks Chuffy. I was confused - thinking of Bella and Amber not dogs from link.

Note to self: Follow the conversation. LOL!

As a trainer who has been able to "rehabilitate" two dogs to live together, with a bitch with rather serious DA and who has (I've said before, sorry if it sounds repetitive) caused punctures, lacerations, and even one bite that required anaesthetic surgery to repair the wound, I think I can say with experience and confidence that it is a very hard thing to do, and it is not for everybody. It is stressful, it is time-consuming, and it is not without risk.

My dogs were the same size and weight range (one being 13.5 lbs and one being 16 lbs), and it's a far cry from a dog that is easily one third the weight of another. And I have a higher-than average amount of experience with dogs in general, so I knew precisely what to look for and how to manage, train, and handle those dogs. But doing it myself, and recommending that somebody else do it are two totally different scenarios.

In saying that, I have the confidence and the knowledge to say that not everyone can do it, not everybody should attempt it, and for somebody who has little dog experience to do so is very dangerous, especially with injuries that were that severe. Even with professional help, that professional is only there for one hour per week on average,the person living with the dogs still has to worry about the other 23 hours in the day. It still takes months to really fix those problems, and sometimes they are never *fixed*, but simply kept on top of. You really have to be diligent and know a lot about reading dogs to be able to find the first signs that arousal is heightening and that problems are imminent.

I would be nothing but irresponsible if I said that because *I* can do it, or because _____ can do it, then anybody can do it. As a trainer, it is my responsibility to explain the dangers and risks associated with trying to do what I have done with my own dogs. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is my job to explain that it is stressful, difficult, and possibly dangerous, and the owner really needs to know what is involved in such a procedure. As a trainer, it is my responsibility to weigh the abilities of the owner of those dogs, the safety risks involved, and the potential for future harm, and to express those ideas respectfully but honestly. And sometimes that does include the fact that a person may not be able to adequately manage the situation to allow the dogs to coexist again in the future.

I'm not saying that this poster is or is not capable. I have never met him/her, or the dogs, nor have I seen the lifestyle that this family unit lives, so I truly have no idea. Which is precisely why I will not even begin to recommend that he or she attempt to rehabilitate these dogs to live together.

Kim_MacMillan

I'm not saying that this poster is or is not capable. I have never met him/her, or the dogs, nor have I seen the lifestyle that this family unit lives, so I truly have no idea. Which is precisely why I will not even begin to recommend that he or she attempt to rehabilitate these dogs to live together.

That's why everybody agrees that she needs a professional and that she should not attempt this without one. The techniques to use can solve the problem, solve it in twice as long or not solve them whatsoever due to the trainers personal "demons". It would be very useful to find a professional that does not stick with only one philosophy and "if its not this way then there is no solution".

One philosophy can be great to solve a behavior but it's useless to solve another one

This thread is getting locked for 48 hours.

This is especially unfortunate, considering the urgent nature of our OP's problem.  When the thread is re-opened, posts need to be applicable to the OP's situation, only, and respectful of our forum and its rules.  Personal grudge matches have no place here.  If posters cannot comply, their accounts will be suspended.