Help, Bella attacked Amber

For the moment, it comes down to a lot less freedom, a lot more supervision, and no alone time between them!! And I would really get a full medical workup on Bella done while she's at the vet to make sure there's nothing physical or hormonal causing her recent behaviour change.

I wouldn't necessarily totally segregate them right now, but I would definitely either have the offender on leash at all times, or institute the use of a muzzle for safety management. You might consider the use of baby gates to separate them physically but allow them both a bit of freedom in their own areas, that way you can also reward for positive behaviour on each side of the gate. Total segregation will only likely make the situation worse if something happens and the dogs come into contact again - the longer they don't see each other, the more intense it can become. So having a way they can semi-coexist so nothing further happens would be a priority for me.

For the long run - you'll need to consider whether it's a task you want to take on. Having a dog that has severely injured another dog is a big responsibility, especially in a pack of dogs. Some people can do it, some people realistically can not, and there's no shame in it. It's a lot of work to have a special needs dog in a group of other dogs, and it will affect your life for years to come, so it's something you really want to think strongly about whether you can do or not.

Although you then face the issue with rehoming of placing a special needs dog in a home where it may happen again. You might be better off consulting a rescue (I don't remember what kind of dog Bella is) about getting her into a good foster home that can work with her, if one is available. It would seem most logical to rehome the offending dog, to create stability in the other dogs, but it's not an easy decision to make.

akyramoto82

 we feel like one needs to be rehomed possibly. we just don't know if that should be Amber or Bella. I honestly have been having thoughts about re-homing zoey - even more so now, i just feel overwhelmed. I dont know if I can raise a stable pup, and I don't know if Bella would be a good influence to have around.

what to do right now. In the last two month Bella has been showing more 'aggressive' behavior, lifting her lips at other dogs she usually was friends with, usually I tell her to knock it off, and she gets a timeout and she's fine.

 Is Bella a GSD/Pit Bull mix? If so, considering you have a home with multiple same sex dogs it is not at all surprising that there is a problem. GSDs as a breed are very prone to same sex aggression, especially between females. The more females you keep together, the higher the risk of same sex aggression is. Having females close in age increases the risk even further.

IMO most GSDs have the genetic tendency towards same sex aggression. Some are put into situations in their life which trigger it and some are not. Same sex aggression is often, at it's base seems to be about resources. Dogs with strong tendency towards same sex aggression have a lowered threshold of how many same sex dogs they will tolerate sharing resources with. For some it takes just one other dog, for others it can take three, four or more to trigger the same response. With some it may be living with another female too close to the same age as them. And it can also be triggered by a change in the group (new dogs brought in or the death of an old dog) or by one certain dog's behavior. Or a certain combination of these things.

This problem does not really have anything to do with the dog's relationship with their owner, although many people will tell you it is because you need to "be more alpha". It is actually a survival instinct which is found in wild canines as well. It also is not due to being intact or not. In fact, some cases spaying can actually increase aggression and spaying is not known to reduce aggression between females. Most commonly shows up in dogs after social maturity and two dogs who were always fine together, may begin fighting. Most GSD people will warn against having same sex dogs unless you are willing and able to keep them separated if problems occur. APBTs ("pit bulls";) also have a strong tendency towards same sex aggression and since they were orginally were sleceted for figthing other dogs(and some today still are), keeping them in a multi-dog household can be a bit tricky.

 This is a good article outling "crate and rotate" or what I like to call RotatoDog, which si what many people who have dogs which don't get along find themselves doing. I have lived in a RotatoDog household for the past 10 years due to my own GSDs and have raised several puppies in that time frame and whelped a few litters too. It is not easy at first but once you get the routine down, it sort of becomes part of every day life: http://www.pbrc.net/rotate.html

 I would also suggest a training program called Ruff Love, which is designed to put you in control of your dog's resources. It is pretty strict but it is at least worth reading and putting what you can into place: http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/09/wild-and-crazy-dogs.html 

  Rehoming is of course an option but it ould only really make sense to rehome the dog who shows the same sex aggression. If she is a GSD/APBT mix who has caused injured another dog in a fight, I doubt you could find any rescue that would be willing to take her. How is she with people? Strangers? It won't be easy to find a suitable home for such a common mix, especially one with APBT that needs to be an only dog but it isn't impossible either.

AgileGSD

This is a good article outling "crate and rotate" or what I like to call RotatoDog, which si what many people who have dogs which don't get along find themselves doing. I have lived in a RotatoDog household for the past 10 years due to my own GSDs

Which shows that the problem is not solved, you are just avoiding it

I dont think is fair to re home one of them as the new owners will have to deal with the issues then even if they dont have other dogs. You dont need to "be more alpha", you just need to know how redirect and prevent the fight before it erupts and for that you will need professional help.

You dont know if Amber actually is staring and challenging Bella who is just reacting back. You can breake up the fights but if they are still fixated on eachother is just a "i'll deal with you later" type of situation, you will need to know how to break up a fight AND how to teach them to drop the issue right there as well as not having to challenge each other

Professional help and a good one is needed now

I don't have much hopeful advice but I do sympathize. As much as I wanted to believe that we could manage the situation with our 2, it really came down to keeping them separated. The triggers for my dogs seemed fairly obvious in the beginning (a toy or treat) but eventually it became unpredictable. It was also completely impossible for me to separate our 2 dogs (both 70+ lbs) when they got into a fight. For that reason, they are never allowed to be together when I'm home alone. DH allows them supervised time together but he's much stronger than I am and has been able to break up a fight by himself. After the first few fights, all spaced out by many months, they didn't really want to interact with each other anymore. It's been a couple years now since they had a fight but that's because of the careful management. I wouldn't suggest anyone try this arrangement unless there were no other options. We did meet with a professional behaviorist and she gave us some helpful advice but she also agreed that keeping them separated when we weren't there to supervise would always be necessary. I hope you can reach a decision that works best for all of you.

 for those who were curious about bella's breed, here's a pic of her...

 

and this is amber

 

 

we still haven't decided what to do. I did email a local trainer this morning.

I very much sympathize with you. Just a couple of weeks ago I had to rehome my beloved Skidget because she had started fighting with Dixie. Skidget is 6 and Dixie is 5 and there has never been any problem with them before but Skidget did this once before to another little dog I had (these dogs are all pretty similar in size). She started out with little dominant motions like a paw on the back of the other dog or her head on the other dog's back. Within a week she was picking fights and after a while if the other dog got within her sight Skidget would go after her like she wanted to kill her. Once she managed to draw blood when they got together while I wasn't home although I couldn't find the wound on Ginger when I looked. (Of course I felt terrible) That was probably 3 or 4 years ago and Ginger was already on her way to another home so that ended the problem. When she started doing the same thing with Dixie it was totally out of the blue but I knew where it was headed. I tried to stop it before it escalated but there was no way. Without crating her I couldn't separate Skidget because she goes over all the baby gates. I knew I had to find a home for her and I found someone wonderful to take her. I made it clear that although Skidget would probably be wonderful with any other dogs she saw that they would have to plan to be a one dog household for the amount of time they have her. They were former poodle owners and have always only had one dog so it worked out well. Skidget is a little obcessive and I though she would be the one of my dogs who would benefit from being an only dog in a calm (no kids) household. I guess I didn't need to tell you the whole story I only do in sympathy and to let you know that although I really hated to let my girl go things seem to be working out well for all concerned. I hope you can work it out too. I really feel for you. Edited: Can anyone tell me why my posts show paragraphs when I type them but when I post them it becomes one big paragraph?

That appears to me to be a vast size difference between them, which is a huge red flag to me. I am almost wondering if rather than aggression what might have occurred is predatory drift. What that basically means is that sometimes larger dogs will suddenly (even after years of living together) look upon a housemate who is much smaller as prey rather than another dog. The injuries also sound like they may possibly be similar, as the common method in dispatching small prey is to shake by the neck/head, and that's where the injuries are sustained. Of course you weren't there so you can not be sure, but that is a possibility.

espencer

AgileGSD

This is a good article outling "crate and rotate" or what I like to call RotatoDog, which si what many people who have dogs which don't get along find themselves doing. I have lived in a RotatoDog household for the past 10 years due to my own GSDs

Which shows that the problem is not solved, you are just avoiding it

Actually keeping them separated has solved the problem quite well. The problem being that they would fight and the solution being that they haven't fought in a really long time.

AgileGSD

Actually keeping them separated has solved the problem quite well.

 

Really? put them back together if the problem is "solved" then. You know exactly what i meant

espencer

AgileGSD

Actually keeping them separated has solved the problem quite well.

 

Really? put them back together if the problem is "solved" then. You know exactly what i meant

 Actually I'm not sure why you insist the problem hasn't been solved. It certainly has been :)

 Curious as to how many GSD (or APBT or Boxers or similar breeds prone to very serious same sex aggression) girls you've had that repeatedly fought and injured each other and what sort of solution you came up with for them.

 Pfft. I lived with two small terrier bitches, for two years. The solution, after trying a behaviorist vet, drugs, herbs, acupuncture (seriously!), and everything else I could think of, was "Don't let the dogs see each other".

 

Worked like a charm. One of them passed away, of age related issues, and the other lived on for several years, happily, in a multi dog household. Some dogs just are NOT going to get along, same sex pairs in particular. You deal with it, in the household, or you remove one of them from the household. That does not make you a bad dog owner, it makes you a SMART dog owner (who doesn't like breaking up fights and spending the money to have dogs put back together).

jennie_c_d

Some dogs just are NOT going to get along

Wrong, thats a mental wall that some people (not naming anyone in specific) put themselfs up for their lack of skills on handling the situation. Those dog owners look up to that "impossible" goal and call it "fantasy world", for them is a fantasy, for others is a reality

For me, a smart dog owner would be that who would be prepared to handle a situation like this before adding a second dog (or third, etc) into the house. Just like when they research the breed they are going to get before hand

If i'm adding another dog am i prepared to  deal with possible fights? "No i cant, i will rotate them instead", well if you cant then dont get one.

If you get a high energy dog are you prepared to exercise him every single day? "No i cant, i will crate him instead so he does not tear up my house" well i guess that based on the ideology, a "solution" like that also will "solve" the problem

Truly smart dog owners ask themselves questions before taking a decision. Truly smart dog owners defuse the issue before it gets worse with time. Truly smart dog owners teach their dogs how is allowed and not allowed to behave with others and not just expect that will happen by miracle

What happens when people have a dog aggressive dog? Well the solution is to socialize him, "i can just not take him out anymore instead and that will solve the problem", sure, easier for them but the dog will still have the same behavioral problem all his life and live "happily"

The energy spent by rotating dogs for 10 years is way more than the energy spent on socializing 2 dogs. I guess some people rather to "spread out" that energy even if at the end is more

Truly smart dog owners take ownership of the problem and dont blame it on sex or just "is the way it is". The owner did or didnt do something that let the issue to escalate into this point. It seems that some dog owners out there rather not to take ownership for their lack of skills and rather to blame the dogs instead.

If an owner is not prepared to help their dogs with EVERY single issue they can have, then they should not get one. If they still do, then they are just being selfish and thinking about their own human necessities 

 I brought Amber home yesterday, put her in an ex pen in the kitchen. Bella was in the wire crate in the dining room, so they could see each other all day. We did not allow them to have any contact with each other - one was in a pen or crate while the other was out.

Right before bed, my BF & I were in our room & we heard Bella going crazy - trying to attack Amber again. it was very unsettling. and we though maybe it was a one time thing. Nope she did it two more times - amber would just be walking by & Bella would go into ' i want to kill you' mode.

 Everytime she did it she could not see us, she stopped the first time when my Bf came out to see what was going on. She did it two more times in the middle of the night - my Bf got up a couple times and forgot to close the door to keep Amber in our room.

so this morning, I set up the video camera, I wanted to see what was triggering this. It shows amber walks by & you can see the whites of Bella's eyes at one point, she stares at Amber the whole time.  Amber comes back by & it pretty close to the crate - doesn't 'approach' the crate really, just happens to be very close when she walks by. Bella looses it & tries to attack her.

I can post the vid if anyone wants to see it. but I think it's confirmed my BF's choice to re-home Bella, or it least thats what he was talking about last night.  

 

thanks

 so for those who think we should keep her & deal with this problem, what do you recommend?

I used to physical corrections on her, but now I'm thinking that those probably created this problem or made it worse.

the only think I can think of right now for positive reinforcement is to have both dogs on a leash, or Amber tied to a stationary object. Then reward Bella when she is showing calmness & relaxation. reinforcing that Amber is a good thing, not something to kill.

Bella is extremely hard to read sometimes though. 

Just want some recommendations - seems like this thread has turned into 'i'm a bad dog owner'

please remember that these dogs have been living together with almost no problems for almost 3 years! they were the two dogs that could always be together without any worries. It just really felt like this came out of the blue. I mean if she wouldve went after amber a day or two earlier, or earlier that day then I might wonder, but there was nothing - they were actually playing together like they usually do - which involved Bella rolling onto her back so short stuff amber could play with her.

more background on Bella, she came from the streets ( found under a car, greasy & dehydrated), yes she probably didn't receive enough socialization - we got her about 6 months old.She was always around dogs though, my friend has 4 and my other friend has 4, so she had 11 dogs ( including our 3) that she was good around.

She has always been a very 'unsure' dog, lots of submissive urinating for the first year literally if you raised your voice ( firm or excited, didn't matter) she'd pee all over the place. She always has had that attitude like she's not quite sure what she's supposed to be doing.  Around us she's good, I've never felt like she would be aggressive towards us. She has rules, she know she has to sit to come in, eat dinner, get love, get on the couch, etc..

She has been on a good exercise program ( except for right now because of the rain - but we did have a tongue hanging round of flirt pole this weekend), I've always bicycled, rollerbladed and walked her.  almost feel like the first couple years she was just unsure ( the way she'd posture when she was unsure of another dog), and now that she's about 3 years old maybe she's getting more confident but not quite 'right' in the head, like she hasn't gotten it figured out yet, but heck 'I'm a big girl now, so I'm just gonna do it'.

I would always describe Bella as being a little 'off'. She basically turns into a puddle if she doesn't know what you want. literally, she'll just start to slump over & go jello on you. 

Still waiting on a call back from a trainer. if any one has any suggestions it would be appreciated