Help, Bella attacked Amber

akyramoto82

so for those who think we should keep her & deal with this problem, what do you recommend?

I think espencer might be the only one who thinks this is manageable without keeping them separated. I appreciate his opinion on the issue but I personally did not have the kind of training to insure that I could keep my dog's safe when they were together. More power to those who can do it but for those who can't, the dogs will be losers in the deal. I personally think that rehoming Bella might be your best option. Although we've been managing our situation for about 8+ yrs now, it is not an ideal situation for the dogs or for us and I don't recommend it.

I'd like to see the video though. It sounds like Bella is a lot like Sassy and I'd just like to see if I can spot that.

espencer

For me, a smart dog owner would be that who would be prepared to handle a situation like this before adding a second dog (or third, etc) into the house. Just like when they research the breed they are going to get before hand

I wish I'd asked that question before we rescued Sassy but because we'd never had a situation where our dogs didn't get along, it didn't occur to us. Because of this experience I will definitely consider it in the future though. I am not cut out to deal with dogs that fight nor do I want to learn how. If that puts me in the lower eschelon of dog owners, I can live with that.

cakana

espencer

For me, a smart dog owner would be that who would be prepared to handle a situation like this before adding a second dog (or third, etc) into the house. Just like when they research the breed they are going to get before hand

I wish I'd asked that question before we rescued Sassy but because we'd never had a situation where our dogs didn't get along, it didn't occur to us. Because of this experience I will definitely consider it in the future though. I am not cut out to deal with dogs that fight nor do I want to learn how. If that puts me in the lower eschelon of dog owners, I can live with that.

obviously if we got Bella & she didn't fit they we wouldn't have kept her.

the thing that boggles my mind is that they've been together for so long with no real problems - not even separating them to eat.

I will post the vid @lunch today. I also took some pics of Amber's wounds. she has a drain in the lower one. she's on antibiotics and pain killers, and she's getting a hot compress multiple times a day.

akyramoto82

the thing that boggles my mind is that they've been together for so long with no real problems - not even separating them to eat.

I know it's been longer that your 2 have been together but our 2 got along great for several months before anything happened. They slept together, played together, and ate together. It was a shock to us when it started happening too. We don't know Sassy's history but we'd had another dog (male) before we adopted her and he and Buffy got along perfectly.

 My BF contacted the SPCA behavior helpline, so we'll see what they suggest.

Those of us who have lived with, and had to endure, the problems that come with multi-dog households for years on end, I think would be in a better position to understand your situation than those who have not lived it. I don't mean have worked with clients, or have dogsat for a few weeks, or read about others doing it or seeing it on TV, I mean have lived every minute, of every day, and had to be there through good times and bad.

Most people, without serious help from a knowledgable professional, will not be able to handle that serious of a situation. Even with that help, it's not the lifestyle for every person, and rightfully so. Living with a DA dog in the house, fulltime, is stressful, and tiring, and downright hard. And any responsible person will use management in the form of segragation to keep the dogs apart unless actively working on the issue. I am really most concerned because of the size difference of your dogs. If that happened again, the little one really has no chance of defending itself in any manner.

And you are right in that using any form of harsh punishment, heavy corrections, is the last thing that needs to be added to the situation right now. It's like adding gasoline to an already lit fire - adding adrenaline to adrenaline will likely only worsen the problem.

Although rehoming a DA dog is a big concern with its own problems, living with it in your home when you are not in a situation to deal with it is your primary concern. You will have to use whatever in your power (including a muzzle if necessary) to ensure the safety of your little dog.

Sometimes social relations just change over time. You can have dogs for years that for some reason, one day up and decide to aggress towards another dog. It could be medical, physical, or simply a social maturation in which certain motivations have kicked in during a certain part of adulthood. Most often there are ealy signs that people have never even noticed, things that, because they didn't escalate, were shrugged off or perhaps they were that subtle that a professional would be required to notice the relations. I would wager that this has been building for some time, and that it's not necessarily as sudden as it appears (although some medical issues can make it that way).

Kim_MacMillan

Those of us who have lived with, and had to endure, the problems that come with multi-dog households for years on end, I think would be in a better position to understand your situation than those who have not lived it. I don't mean have worked with clients, or have dogsat for a few weeks, or read about others doing it or seeing it on TV, I mean have lived every minute, of every day, and had to be there through good times and bad.

Most people, without serious help from a knowledgable professional, will not be able to handle that serious of a situation. Even with that help, it's not the lifestyle for every person, and rightfully so. Living with a DA dog in the house, fulltime, is stressful, and tiring, and downright hard. And any responsible person will use management in the form of segragation to keep the dogs apart unless actively working on the issue. I am really most concerned because of the size difference of your dogs. If that happened again, the little one really has no chance of defending itself in any manner.

And you are right in that using any form of harsh punishment, heavy corrections, is the last thing that needs to be added to the situation right now. It's like adding gasoline to an already lit fire - adding adrenaline to adrenaline will likely only worsen the problem.

Although rehoming a DA dog is a big concern with its own problems, living with it in your home when you are not in a situation to deal with it is your primary concern. You will have to use whatever in your power (including a muzzle if necessary) to ensure the safety of your little dog.

Sometimes social relations just change over time. You can have dogs for years that for some reason, one day up and decide to aggress towards another dog. It could be medical, physical, or simply a social maturation in which certain motivations have kicked in during a certain part of adulthood. Most often there are ealy signs that people have never even noticed, things that, because they didn't escalate, were shrugged off or perhaps they were that subtle that a professional would be required to notice the relations. I would wager that this has been building for some time, and that it's not necessarily as sudden as it appears (although some medical issues can make it that way).

I have considered a muzzle & keeping them apart unless working on the issue.

I actually noticed her starting to growl/lift a lip at dogs right after Akyra passed away ( November 2009) . But because I *thought* that I had corrected it, by giving her a physical/verbal correction, I thought she knew that was not the right thing to do. Every time she's done it, it's been *managed* ( or so we thought) in the same way - giving her a verbal correction, and if that didn't get her to stop then a physical correction.

so ya, we saw signs, but we didn't think it would end up in this, I really thought it was her telling another dog 'hey, back off, I'm not comfortable' I didn't think it would escalate so quickly into 'I want to kill you little dog' - and all the lip lifting so far had never been towards Amber.

I think we made up excuses in  every case, 'oh she lifted a lip to Cedar cuz she's so big (140lbs) and she was intimidated'

but looking back, what could I have done? removed her from the situation? We always did that, and it didn't fix it (obviously).

Kim_MacMillan

Those of us who have lived with, and had to endure, the problems that come with multi-dog households for years on end, I think would be in a better position to understand your situation than those who have not lived it.

Agreed, those of us who have lived with multi-dog households for years (Chuck certainly was not the first dog i ever had)

Kim_MacMillan

using any form of harsh punishment, heavy corrections, is the last thing that needs to be added to the situation right now. It's like adding gasoline to an already lit fire - adding adrenaline to adrenaline will likely only worsen the problem.

Those of us who have used corrections to address this type of behavior I think would be in a better position to understand your situation than those who have not use them

akyramoto82

I actually noticed her starting to growl/lift a lip at dogs right after Akyra passed away ( November 2009) . But because I *thought* that I had corrected it, by giving her a physical/verbal correction, I thought she knew that was not the right thing to do. Every time she's done it, it's been *managed* ( or so we thought) in the same way - giving her a verbal correction, and if that didn't get her to stop then a physical correction.

Thats exactly why when people say "let them figure it out themselves" they dont know what are they talking about, it can end up this way. I know that you were not trying to do it this way but is a good moment to adress that type of advise

Unfourtunately sometimes the follow through after the correction is more important than the correction itself. After you correct verbally you should pay attention to what the dog does right after. Is he not growling but still looking at the other dog? Is his body really relaxed? if not then the follow through failed. These signs need to be pointed out by a professional to teach you what to look for after the correction

Again, how come we dont know that Amber is the one giving challenging looks to Bella who is only disagreeing with the "rude" behavior?

People who dont want to use corrections rather to spend 10 years rotating the dogs

espencer

 

Unfourtunately sometimes the follow through after the correction is more important than the correction itself. After you correct verbally you should pay attention to what the dog does right after. Is he not growling but still looking at the other dog? Is his body really relaxed? if not then the follow through failed. These signs need to be pointed out by a professional to teach you what to look for after the correction

Again, how come we dont know that Amber is the one giving challenging looks to Bella who is only disagreeing with the "rude" behavior?

People who dont want to use corrections rather to spend 10 years rotating the dogs

I do agree with this, just because Bella *seemed* relaxed, maybe she wasn't

and I do agree with the Bella/Amber thing, we don't know for sure who is instigating what, but I'll post the video, and let people decide.

espencer

jennie_c_d

Some dogs just are NOT going to get along

Wrong, thats a mental wall that some people (not naming anyone in specific) put themselfs up for their lack of skills on handling the situation. Those dog owners look up to that "impossible" goal and call it "fantasy world", for them is a fantasy, for others is a reality

  Generally the only people I have ever had tell me this are people who have never had dogs extremely prone to same sex aggression and never had a bitch who displayed same sex aggression.

espencer

If i'm adding another dog am i prepared to  deal with possible fights? "No i cant, i will rotate them instead", well if you cant then dont get one.

 Then in your opinion, no one should ever have own more than two GSDs, APBTs, Boxers, JRTs etc - one of each sex. In some breeds, bringing in a second same sex dogs means that you may need to accept the reality that the two dogs may need to be separated. I always tell people with GSDs bitches who want another female dog that they should not get one unless they can accept living with Rotatodog if the dogs end up not getting along. The majority of reputable, experienced breeders and rescues of those breeds will tell you the same thing.

espencer

If you get a high energy dog are you prepared to exercise him every single day? "No i cant, i will crate him instead so he does not tear up my house" well i guess that based on the ideology, a "solution" like that also will "solve" the problem

 Not remotely the same thing. High energy dogs are not risking the well being (and with some life) of their housemates with their behavior. Dogs with same sex aggression are.

espencer

Truly smart dog owners ask themselves questions before taking a decision. Truly smart dog owners defuse the issue before it gets worse with time. Truly smart dog owners teach their dogs how is allowed and not allowed to behave with others and not just expect that will happen by miracle

 I'm still interested in hearing how many same sex aggressive bitches you have lived with and how you solved the problem so that they enjoyed each other's company again.

espencer

What happens when people have a dog aggressive dog? Well the solution is to socialize him, "i can just not take him out anymore instead and that will solve the problem", sure, easier for them but the dog will still have the same behavioral problem all his life and live "happily"

The energy spent by rotating dogs for 10 years is way more than the energy spent on socializing 2 dogs. I guess some people rather to "spread out" that energy even if at the end is more

 You sure are assuming a lot about me and my dogs. Of the two GSDs, only one is truly same sex aggressive. The other, in typical GSD fashion will not back down but doesn't start fights either - she gets along well with the other girls. The same sex aggressive one will become aggressive with any mature, female living in the household with her. She will tolerate puppies and visiting girls but as they mature, her tolerance lessens. If I watch her like a hawk I can bully her into leaving the other dogs alone (not the other GSD though - too much history between them and they pretty much even at 12 want to fight if they catch sight of each other) but I could never, ever trust her - the second she was alone or my attention was not fully on her she will start a fight. For me, that is not an acceptable solution. It is extremely stressful on the other girls who know that the GSD wants to attack them and is just being prevented from doing so. It is stressful on the GSD who is genetically wired to be intolerant of sharing resources with other same sex dogs and is just acting on instinct. And it is stressful on me to have to supervise to the degree that it would take to prevent fights. I literally could never turn my back on the GSD and expect that she won't styart menacing another dog.

 This is not a socialization problem. The same sex GSD gets along fine with dogs of either sex that she doesn't live with, puppies, visiting girls and boy dogs. I worked at a doggy daycare for almost 10 years and she came with me to work daily for many of those years. At doggy daycare she spent all day in a group of up to 30 other dogs, with just me supervising and I never had any problem with her with any of those dogs. Mostly she just ignored them and followed me around with her ball. I can take her to over to other people's houses and she is repsectful of the resuident dogs and avoids conflict with them. She has gone to many, many dog shows in her life as well as classes, seminars, pet expos, fairs/festivals, etc. She has literally been exposed to thousands upon thousands of other dogs in her lifetime and only has issues with very specific ones - mature females that she is expected to share resources with. She is extremely well trained and is an outstanding worker. Where do you feel she is lacking in training or socialization?

espencer

If an owner is not prepared to help their dogs with EVERY single issue they can have, then they should not get one. If they still do, then they are just being selfish and thinking about their own human necessities 

  That's funny - I generally think it is an ego issue when people insist on forcing dogs who are fighting and injuring each other to continue to live together. To me, that is putting their human wants ahead of what is best for the dogs.

 I have researched this topic for years and have found that attempting to force such dogs to live together has cost many dogs their lives, sometimes even years after the problem was "solved". This topic recently came up on a breed list I'm on and one trainer admitted that she used to be very into "dominance theory" and strongly felt that a good owner should be able to force their dogs to tolerate each other. She "rehabbed" multiple fighting bitches until she got a call one day about two bitches she had worked with a couple years back. Turns out, the owner left them in the car together, just long enough to run into the house to grab something and when she came back one dog had killed the other. The dogs had tolerated each other without incident for two years prior to this happening. In my research I have found heartbreaking story after heartbreaking story of very similar situations that end with one or two severaly maimed or dead dogs. I just don't see the point in taking a risk like that and I would never encourage any owner to try to force dogs to live together that are willing to cause real injuries to each other.

 So here's the vid, it was filmed this morning so sorry bout the low light situation.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/akyramoto/?action=view¤t=bellaagressiontowardsambercrate.flv

You can hear right afterwords when I walk in she starts wagging her tail like nothing happened.

espencer, using your own logic, my response would be why get a dog if you have to spend 10 plus years using corrections to force it to tolerate another dog? 

akyramoto82

 So here's the vid, it was filmed this morning so sorry bout the low light situation.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/akyramoto/?action=view¤t=bellaagressiontowardsambercrate.flv

You can hear right afterwords when I walk in she starts wagging her tail like nothing happened.

Yikes, that scared me! Because it's dark I couldn't tell if Bella was watching Amber the whole time or was she startled by her? Regardless, she obviously could and will hurt Amber if given the chance. It's definitely different than things are with my two. Neither of my dogs will back down, so had that happened with mine, the other wouldn't have walked away. That doesn't make it any better for you or I, but it's just different. Is Bella usually crated at night? If not, she may have felt threatened or territorial, but again, that doesn't help much. My dogs were always fine with each other after a fight. They could go weeks or months before something else set them off. That's one of the reasons it was so hard to work on the problem. I hope someone else can offer more insight after watching the video.

akyramoto82

 So here's the vid, it was filmed this morning so sorry bout the low light situation.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/akyramoto/?action=view¤t=bellaagressiontowardsambercrate.flv

You can hear right afterwords when I walk in she starts wagging her tail like nothing happened.

That video is hard to interpret on its own because I know many very dog-friendly dogs that will act the same way when in their kennels. I can tell pretty much when Bella locks on to Amber with a stare and you can see the tension building in the clip (although it's pretty dark). The actual behaviour looks similar to many dogs who guard their own kennel (space) from others. But it is definitely a serious threat, although I can also see definite stress responses from Bella too, so I'm wondering if Bella is actually experiencing some anxiety?

I think you hit the nail on the head when you noticed that the correction suppressed the behaviour, but in no way did it change the way the dog felt. Basically, you punished the growl out of the dog but the dog still felt very uncomfortable with the presence of other dogs. This is one clear fallout from using punishment. When this happens a lot over time, a dog will eventually change the signs that it gives another dog before aggressing, with less and less signs that it is uncomfortable. Some dogs I've worked with have given virtually no sign at all that they were uncomfortable until they were within one foot and by then it can be too late to really prevent a reaction, and this generally happens when a person tries to punish the signs that the dog is giving its human saying "Mom, I'm really uncomfortable here, I can't control my own impulses and emotions". Left to their own devices dogs would generally all be great communicators, it's generally humans that end up altering how dogs communicate with each other, and usually for the worse.

To think about it from a realistic perspective, even if you can "force" two dogs to live in harmony together, from the perspective of a dog is it really all that harmonious for them if they can never be alone together, need constant training and redirection and management? Both dogs are definitely experiencing some stress, and some dogs just do not enjoy each other. Sometimes it is same-sex social issues, sometimes it is medical issues, sometimes it is simply clashing personalities. You can expect all dogs to get along the same way you can expect all people to get along. Imagine being forced into living in the same house with somebody you really don't like. You can fake "get along" but you are never truly comfortable and there is no sense of harmony. Dogs don't get choices in their lives as to who to live with. We as the responsible ones "in control" need to help make those decisions for them. Anybody who says that all dogs can be "made" to live with other dogs is simply ignorant of what the dog is experiencing. Yes, some issues can be fixed to a relatively high level of trust and happiness for all. But, some cannot, and the dogs are the ones who end up suffering because of it. Some dogs just prefer a one-dog home, or even perhaps with another dog of a different personality (I wouldn't suggest this in Bella's case...I'm just making a general statement).