Help, Bella attacked Amber

cakana

akyramoto82

 So here's the vid, it was filmed this morning so sorry bout the low light situation.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/akyramoto/?action=view¤t=bellaagressiontowardsambercrate.flv

You can hear right afterwords when I walk in she starts wagging her tail like nothing happened.

Yikes, that scared me! Because it's dark I couldn't tell if Bella was watching Amber the whole time or was she startled by her? Regardless, she obviously could and will hurt Amber if given the chance. It's definitely different than things are with my two. Neither of my dogs will back down, so had that happened with mine, the other wouldn't have walked away. That doesn't make it any better for you or I, but it's just different. Is Bella usually crated at night? If not, she may have felt threatened or territorial, but again, that doesn't help much. My dogs were always fine with each other after a fight. They could go weeks or months before something else set them off. That's one of the reasons it was so hard to work on the problem. I hope someone else can offer more insight after watching the video.

Bella is watching Amber the whole time.

Yes & no on crating, she's usually not crated at night - but she loves the crate - thats usually Sheba's crate, but Bella will do in there & lay down during the day.

 but that was the only secure place for her during the night, since she can jump baby gates & I dont trust the ex pen to protect Amber.

I guess we'll just have to relocate it, so Amber wont have to go past her at any time. I really thought there might be a chance that Bella would lay off of it ( not become fixated on Amber), but after 4 of those responses in the crate, I wouldn't trust Amber around her - it doesn't matter who started it, its not safe.

Bella has never displayed being territorial around the crate before - just the other day, Amber & Bella were in the crate together ( door open).

 Zoey has demonstrated some weirdness towards Amber, she'll go over & 'poke' Amber, if you will. Like saying 'heyyyy!! play play play' Amber's #1 response all the time is a snarl/snap thing 'get away from me'.

But Sheba does the same thing! Zoey goes over just to see if old dog wants to play today, two big 'woof woofs' with intention later & Zoey forgets about asking old dog to play for a couple days.

I know this isn't the same thing but when we met with a behaviorist she told us that when we separated the dogs after a fight, they needed to be removed from within sight of each other. I didn't need to hear that from her. I could tell that the tension was there and building if they were allowed to stare each other down. I could almost see the wheels turning in their head. I would definitely find a place where Bella is out of view of Amber and vice versa. It's understandable that we assume Bella is the aggressor and perhaps she is, but that doesn't mean she won't feel fear aggressive if she's behind a gate and Amber isn't. All the things that need to be considered can make your head swim but just remember to always err on the cautious side and you'll be okay until you decide what to do.

Kim - Our dogs weren't great at giving much warning (visible to us) in the beginning but I do think that the few times we tried to correct their behavior, we made things worse. Especially as we came to realize that Sassy had fear aggression. We realized our mistake early on but probably not early enough.

Hi....I'm reading this thread with interest...I have only one dog....but have seen what could happen when two dogs living together don't get along... a couple of years ago one was brought to my vet clinic almost dead....two years later she got attacked by the same dog again...only this time not quite as bad.   It made me realize I might have been lucky to have two dogs living together that got along all the time.

I watched the video and only one thing came to my mind....so this is a question for knowing people.    Its known when a dog is behind a fence to watch out....... or any animal for that matter.     My Bubblegum almost bit my neighbors hand when she reached in the open slats of my deck to pet her..........  To me,  Bella acted like a dog behind a fence...... because she was.   Amber walked by and when she got close... Bella reacted....just like a dog behind a fence.    Sometimes a dog that has been behind a fence will come out fighting....  when finally getting out.  Could that have had anything to do with that video?

  Barrier aggression, yes. Emma was extremely barrier aggressive. Even sedated, no one but me could reach into a kennel with her without being bitten. When they can't get away, they are far worse than they would be in an open area.

Also, both of my DA dogs are gone, but if a veterinary behaviorist and a GROUP of trainers, plus an experienced dog owner can't make them get along, I doubt anybody can. Unless, of course, you're talking about breaking them so that they have no behavior left. I don't break dogs. 

 so for those who think we should keep her & deal with this problem, what do you recommend?  I might rehome the little dog, for her own safety, but most people are so reluctant to do that - until the little dog ends up in the ER again.  Crate and rotate.  But, not within sight of one another.

I used to physical corrections on her, but now I'm thinking that those probably created this problem or made it worse.  Glad you got educated!  A recent study has shown that aggressive owners have more aggressive dogs, so that was a very salient point you just made.

the only think I can think of right now for positive reinforcement is to have both dogs on a leash, or Amber tied to a stationary object. Then reward Bella when she is showing calmness & relaxation. reinforcing that Amber is a good thing, not something to kill.  I doubt that you will be successful at having them be able to live loose in the same house again (would you dare risk it after a puncture that went nearly to the jugular?) so is the effort really worth it?

Bella is extremely hard to read sometimes though. And, reading a dog is one thing, actually stopping them is quite another.

Just want some recommendations - seems like this thread has turned into 'i'm a bad dog owner' You are NOT a bad dog owner.  Dogs are dogs, and they do dog things.  The only time I would think of you as a bad owner would be if you took unnecessary chances with your small dog's life now, after realizing how much danger she's in.

please remember that these dogs have been living together with almost no problems for almost 3 years! they were the two dogs that could always be together without any worries. It just really felt like this came out of the blue. I mean if she wouldve went after amber a day or two earlier, or earlier that day then I might wonder, but there was nothing - they were actually playing together like they usually do - which involved Bella rolling onto her back so short stuff amber could play with her.  Remember that you said your dog was "hard to read" so there might have been subtle signs that you didn't realize, or it could simply be that one dog is now at an age where DA tendencies tend to materialize.  There's a reason that I put a cutoff age on APBT pups coming to my play groups! 

more background on Bella, she came from the streets ( found under a car, greasy & dehydrated), yes she probably didn't receive enough socialization - we got her about 6 months old.She was always around dogs though, my friend has 4 and my other friend has 4, so she had 11 dogs ( including our 3) that she was good around.  This is not always a socialization issue.  It could be a barrier frustration issue (dogs that get antsy behind a crate door often want to "get" the dog that was on the outside.  It could be predatory drift, but I'm not inclined to think so.  It could be a mature female simply deciding not to like another dog in the household, living up to a genetic tendency toward DA, or feeling competitive about resources (not always food - some dogs are possessive of people, toys, or even space).

She has always been a very 'unsure' dog, lots of submissive urinating for the first year literally if you raised your voice ( firm or excited, didn't matter) she'd pee all over the place. She always has had that attitude like she's not quite sure what she's supposed to be doing.  Around us she's good, I've never felt like she would be aggressive towards us. She has rules, she know she has to sit to come in, eat dinner, get love, get on the couch, etc.. Aggression toward dogs, or social behavior toward dogs, exists independently of behavior toward humans.  You can't infer passivity or aggression, one from the other.

She has been on a good exercise program ( except for right now because of the rain - but we did have a tongue hanging round of flirt pole this weekend), I've always bicycled, rollerbladed and walked her.  almost feel like the first couple years she was just unsure ( the way she'd posture when she was unsure of another dog), and now that she's about 3 years old maybe she's getting more confident but not quite 'right' in the head, like she hasn't gotten it figured out yet, but heck 'I'm a big girl now, so I'm just gonna do it'.  I just had a red flag pop up - age three is a common age for dog aggressive breeds to have that switch go off.

I would always describe Bella as being a little 'off'. She basically turns into a puddle if she doesn't know what you want. literally, she'll just start to slump over & go jello on you. 

Still waiting on a call back from a trainer. if any one has any suggestions it would be appreciated  Trainers who use aggressive methods or corrections should be avoided.  Your best bet is really with a veterinary or Ph.D. behaviorist for this serious an issue unless it's a trainer with lots of experience working with aggressive dogs that do damage.  Re-read the post about our member who successfully crated and rotated and kept her dogs alive.  I suspect you will be in that category of having to decide to do that.  With the size difference between your dogs (and even without it) this is not a situation that can sustain another slip up.  You will have a dead dog on your hands.  Please don't take advice from the wrong people.

BTW, if this was a spat, with no blood, I wouldn't be as emphatic.  When dogs bite, and puncture like that, they mean to bite, and they are serious.

Liesje

why get a dog if you have to spend 10 plus years using corrections to force it to tolerate another dog? 

Who said you will need 10 years of corrections?

akyramoto82

So here's the vid, it was filmed this morning so sorry bout the low light situation.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/akyramoto/?action=view¤t=bellaagressiontowardsambercrate.flv

You can hear right afterwords when I walk in she starts wagging her tail like nothing happened.

Definitively Amber was not even paying attention to Bella when she reacted. I know you let it happen to demonstrated the behavior. I think you said that you were verbally correcting her before when you saw her curling the lip or growling, i dont know why people think that a verbal correction is being "aggressive" to your dog but anyway. Think about it as a "rechargable battery" the more Bella is fixated on Amber the more "charge" she will have until "discharges" and shows the behavior on the video. The trick is to verbally correct at the very moment her "battery" is starting to charge, every second that goes by is harder to regress her to be calm so timing is very important.

Dont be aggressive when you verbally correct her, frustration and anger deliver the wrong message so be calm but firm. This while you are waiting for a professional to come and help you because i dont think that you can get it 100% accurate by reading it from a forum

You are not "forcing them", "making them", etc. to live together, your are teaching them that they can live together without problems because in your house that behavior is not allowed. See the difference between one an another? See how is so easy to just blame the dogs for the owner's lack of skills? That keeps the owner's ego intact and happy but the ignorance is still there

They were living just fine before and they can go back to live fine again but you need on site help. Heck you can even give Bella a yummy cheese every single time Amber is around starting from far away.

Dr. Ian Dunbar stated that the most effective training occurs when positive rewards are combined with punishment (i.e., praise/reward combined with correction/punishment). He said that under controlled testing for reliability, when positive only methods were used, the reliability factor could be brought no higher than the low to mid 80% range (ranged between 83 – 85%). He went on to say when appropriately timed punishments were added, the reliability increased by 12-14% to a maximum of 97%.

espencer

Definitively Amber was not even paying attention to Bella when she reacted.

That's actually not true. Amber first noticed Bella at the 11 second mark. She comes into the shot and you can see a clear "freeze" behaviour that lasts a full second and a half. Then she goes off camera, but based on the shadows it appears she is sniffing the floor - a classic displacement behaviour by dogs who are uneasy (also called a calming signal). She comes back into the clip at the 48 second mark and once again is sniffing at the ground, and not in a "I wonder what treats I can find", but rather in a distinct displacement manner. If you look at how low Amber is carrying her tail, guaranteed she had a full awareness of Bella.

They may have been living "just fine" before....but they weren't. The OP has already mentioned Bella's reacting to other dogs with growls and other threats, and that the dogs have been in scuffles in the past albeit with no blood drawn until not. I would not classify that as fine, and I think now the OP is realizing that he/she had a role in possibly making the situation worse with the punishments. So that last thing that I think the OP should be doing at this point is adding in any more punishments or aversives. Both dogs are already stressed (even Bella is stressed by her own reaction, from the leg lift and the scratching behaviours after her blow up), there is no need to add more stress to the equation now. If things are going to get better, it's not going to be through the use of punishments at this point. It's going to have to be very careful management and training watching the dogs' comfort levels closely, and that's the kind of thing that most people can't do on their own. A good professional trainer would be a definite help, but not everybody has access to those either.

I have no opnion except this is not you fault!

My River is not good with people but loves, loves, loves other dogs - never had a problem with other dogs ever.  But my two females have lived togeather for two years peacefully and then one day broke out into a fight.  My pug, Hailie started with my Brooke and ever since that first fight Hailie goes after Brooke every chance she gets.  Brooke will cower and move away and Hailie will go out of her way to attack her.  So we crate and rotate, keep hem sepearte always.  We hate it, but it has to be done.  Just two nights ago Hailie went after our sick cat who she has lived with 5 years!  No apparent reason and it was very upsetting!

espencer

They were living just fine before and they can go back to live fine again but you need on site help.

This is really, really bad advice. Advice that can led to a dog being killed by housemate.

 You still haven't told us how many same sex aggressive bitches who were willing to injure each other you have personally "trained" to be best buddies forever with no further problems.

espencer

Definitively Amber was not even paying attention to Bella when she reacted.

Woah woah woah!   Are we watching different videos?  There is a LOT of stuff going on there...

espencer

They were living just fine before and they can go back to live fine again but you need on site help.

If I'm being charitable I'd say that this could be wishful thinking.  Then again, I could just call a spade a spade and say this could be very, very dangerous, and could lead to the smaller dog being killed.  

espencer

Dr. Ian Dunbar stated that the most effective training occurs when positive rewards are combined with punishment (i.e., praise/reward combined with correction/punishment). He said that under controlled testing for reliability, when positive only methods were used, the reliability factor could be brought no higher than the low to mid 80% range (ranged between 83 – 85%). He went on to say when appropriately timed punishments were added, the reliability increased by 12-14% to a maximum of 97%.

I would be very interested to know the context of this statement.  I don't agree with everything Dunbar says, but I can't imagine him recommending punsihment when there is aggression involved.  I am guessing that this is relating to performance issues, for example non-compliance to a cue.... rather than emotional/behavioural problems, where punishment needs to be used with extreme care, if at all.

AgileGSD

espencer

They were living just fine before and they can go back to live fine again but you need on site help.

This is really, really bad advice. Advice that can led to a dog being killed by housemate.

In this circumstance, I'm going to agree.  Keeping the dogs separated visually and physically is necessary here.  I doubt there is ever a chance things will "go back to normal", because I don't suspect the "normal" was even a good situation for either dog.

Mod speaking now:  This OP needs attention on her issue, not MORE infighting (in this case from adult humans), so take it out of this thread, pls.  That "please" is to be polite, but this is not a request - just do it.

Chuffy

Woah woah woah!   Are we watching different videos?  There is a LOT of stuff going on there...

You are definively correct, i didnt explain myself correctly, what i meant is that clearly Amber is not the instigatior, she was trying to ignore/give calming signals to avoid conflict and Bella didnt care

AgileGSD

You still haven't told us how many same sex aggressive bitches who were willing to injure each other you have personally "trained" to be best buddies forever with no further problems.

3, but i would assume that now you want to know breed, age, social security number and cell phone number, you still will say that every dog is diferent so it does not matter what i said you would think that i could not be able to do the same with your dogs. Just one mental wall after another. If rotating dogs for 10 years makes someone think they "solved" a problem then we will have to agree on disagree

Mental barriers are simply amazing

espencer

3, but i would assume that now you want to know breed, age, social security number and cell phone number, you still will say that every dog is diferent so it does not matter what i said

I'd still be interested, and I wouldn't want your cell phone number.   It might warrant a new thread... or not, depending on whether you think those experiences are directly helpful to the OP?

 For everyone one story someone can tell about two dogs who seriously fought that were able to be corrected into getting along (learned helplessness?), you can find at least one that ended in tragedy. A dog friend of mine recently rehomed a female dog that has repeatedly started fights (leading to injury) with her other female dog. It was a hard choice to make but she didn't want to have to keep her dogs separated and being knowledgeable in dog behavior knew that these two dogs could never be trusted together and doing so would be risking their well being. The same sex aggressive dog went to an only dog home where she is doing very well and her new people really love her. If Bella is friendly with people and doesn't have any major temperament issues beyond the same sex aggression, rehoming her is certainly an option to consider. It could be that it is just Amber that she will have a problem with but there is also a real chance that she may simpley be intolerant of sharing resources with same sex dogs in general. That means that once Zoey matures, Bella may have issues with her as well.

  Most dogs adapt to changing homes better than people adapt to parting with them. Most dogs also can adpat to new routines in the household pretty readily, if you choose to go with trying Rotatodog. It really depends on what works for you and your lifestyle.

 Edit to Add: I just realized looking at your Zoey pictures that you have several other female dogs of breeds prone to same sex aggression (Dobe/Rott mix, Bully mixes, ACD/Aussie mix). You have been lucky so far, if this is the first same sex aggressive issue that you have had. The more same sex dogs you have, the more likely you are to see this problem as they mature or you add more to the group. So something else to consider is that this may be something you have to deal with again down the road, even if you choose to rehome Bella.

Some more articles you may want to read:

Same Sex Dogs In the Home: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=113&A=1009&S=1 "When you put two dogs of the same sex together in your home, there is always a risk that they will not be able to get along. Sometimes they will fight, and it can be severe. It's important to realize this is usually not a temperament problem with either of the dogs. This is nature taking its course. Dogs are much more the victims of their own instincts than humans are. Human siblings, you can reason with (sometimes), and they can learn that they have to get along. Dogs are not capable of that kind of reasoning. They will largely do what their instincts drive them to do."

Fatal Pack Fight:  http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=113&A=916&S=1 "Then things seemed to change. The second GSD began fighting enough to nip the mix breed, even puncturing the skin, although they were very minor wounds. However, 2 days ago, my daughter came home to find the second GSD had killed the smaller mix breed. It was a very vicious attack and probably as bad as you can imagine. Our hearts are broken obviously. In my opinion, this is reason enough to have the dog put down, even though she is now not exhibiting the same aggressive signs since she has no smaller animals or humans around now."

Females Fighting: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=113&A=1091&S=1 "I'm not optimistic about these situations once the dogs start getting injured. At that point, separation is usually the best bet, and these two dogs are young enough for either of them to easily go into a new life."

APBTs & Multi-dog Households:  http://www.pbrc.net/multidogs.html "As responsible pit bulls owners, we must understand and respect our breed’s heritage, just as Golden Retriever owners or Border Collie owners should respect their breed’s heritage. This means understanding that our beloved dogs may be intolerant of other dogs. At some point, they may even have to forego all interactions with other dogs. We see too many owners forced to rehome their dogs because they simply don’t understand dog-to-dog aggression issues. For this reason, we cannot underemphasize the consequences of misunderstanding dog aggression."  

Crate & Rotate (APBT specific):   http://www.pbrc.net/rotate.html "The information on this page is to assist owners in managing dogs who do not get along. Perhaps you acquired same-sex pit bulls and now that they have matured, they no longer tolerate each other. Maybe you have a multi-dog household, and two or more of your dogs have recently been fighting. Or you recently added a pit bull to your home, and it just isn't working out with the other dogs. Whatever the reason, we hope that you will be able to safely manage your pets and maintain them in your home. A pet is a lifetime commitment; re-homing should be a last resort. ...  It is important to recognize this behavior for what it is, and not assume that a) it will get better b) re-introductions will resolve it or c) that it is the end of the world. All too frequently, owners get lost in the "but why" "they used to love each other" "perhaps if I do X.Y. or Z, it will change." The reality is that this breed has selectively been bred to be aggressive towards other dogs. Whether or not your dog previously showed this behavior is not relevant anymore. You must take action to prevent fights and maintain the safety of your pets from this point forward."

akyramoto82

 So here's the vid, it was filmed this morning so sorry bout the low light situation.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/akyramoto/?action=view¤t=bellaagressiontowardsambercrate.flv

You can hear right afterwords when I walk in she starts wagging her tail like nothing happened.

OMG....what a way to make someone jump outta the chair!!!  I wasn't expecting that.  Scared the bejessies out of me!