Help, Bella attacked Amber

It just amazes me how people are whilling to put up with 10 years of rotating dogs or rehoming rather than use a method that works.

When those people are confronted with the suggestion that using a correction would successfully modify the potentially lethal behavior (which had not responded favorably to a PP approach), then they start using BS terms like "learned helplesness". When a dog finally got the point and is being calm and submissive to the rules on the house then that is a good term to turn something good into something bad.

Because they are adamant that aversive corrections are not necessary and since they are committed to that ideology, they would rather rotate or re home the dog than correct it. God help us if they even think about review and possibly change some of their beliefs. Since they hold the arrogant belief that they are kinder, more humane, enlightened and "dog friendly" than those who would correct, they are confident in believing that nothing else works.

They are victims of their own ego and rotating or re homing is the price to pay for it

To our OP.  It is sheer folly to put aside the most coherent scientific knowledge that we have about dogs, as well as the advice of long time trainers and dog owners, to try methods that are, at best, unsupported by science, and, at worst, harmful.  Always err on the side of caution, especially where there are same gender dogs fighting or dogs of differing size.  A smaller dog can easily be killed, even accidentally, by a larger one that it spars with, even if the larger dog does not intend to kill the smaller one (in this case, I would not be sure that that is not the intent - which is why AgileGSD made the comment to espencer about how many dogs he's trained out of this scenario).  Dogs can, and do, kill one another, and female to female fights are generally the most likely scenario for this to happen.  Ego has nothing to do with this reality, either here on the forum, or in your home.  It's a well know fact among long time trainers, breeders, and vets. 

Your primary responsibility is to keep all your dogs safe from harm.  If anyone can provide peer reviewed research that supports espencer's position, then I will be the first to read it.  This is a situation that should be dealt with by a Ph.D or DVM behaviorist if you want individual help so that no harm comes to either dog.  Until you can get that, crate and rotate is the safest possible way to avoid a deadly accident. 

Some interesting perspectives on fights between conspecifics:

http://www.dogproblems.com/public/705.cfm?sd=2

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=17521

If dogs are ever to be re-introduced, the protocol is lengthy and must be followed precisely.  Medication may be an adjunct that is useful either short term or long term.  But, if you have any doubt about your ability to seek the appropriate help (not cheap) or adhere to to protocols diligently, then opt for safe management.  If you need a referral to a behaviorist in your area, you can PM me any time.

"Learned helplessness" is not the first concern when using corrections in this kind of situation, when this type of aggression is involved. I may be on my own here, but I would almost RATHER have a shut down down, one that has "learned helplessness", than a dog seriously injured. or dead.  So they are shut down..... at least they are safe.  I understand that mindset.  I still don't think it is a very good solution, but I understand it to a point.

I honestly believe that, for the OP, her greater concern is that the corrections will make the behaviour worse (and possibly even result in one of the dogs being killed?) When one of the dogs is so much smaller than the other, they are the same sex, and one of the dogs is of a breed or type known to be prone to this behaviour, that is a very real concern!  Erring on the side of caution is not down to ego, but rather down to genuine concern for the dogs involved (especially the smaller one).

It's very important to note that the OP has already tried corrections, and believes they made the situation worse. 

Labelling the OP's actions as selfish or egotistical, when she is so very clearly concerned for her dogs and their well being.... is highly unfair.... and given another thread posted, highly inaccurate as well.  This is a really tough situation.... Loving both dogs dearly, being very concerned for the saftey of Amber and probably having mixed feelings towards Bella, as well as doubting themselves, and a young pup in training thrown into the mix.... Well, I'm just glad I'm not in that place.  So, for that reason, I really don't want to be sucked into debating this on this thread... so I am out.  I hope it all turns out well for both dogs.

Please take the time to re-read this salient point from AgileGSD:

It could be that it is just Amber that she will have a problem with but there is also a real chance that she may simpley be intolerant of sharing resources with same sex dogs in general. That means that once Zoey matures, Bella may have issues with her as well.

  Most dogs adapt to changing homes better than people adapt to parting with them. Most dogs also can adpat to new routines in the household pretty readily, if you choose to go with trying Rotatodog. It really depends on what works for you and your lifestyle.

 Edit to Add: I just realized looking at your Zoey pictures that you have several other female dogs of breeds prone to same sex aggression (Dobe/Rott mix, Bully mixes, ACD/Aussie mix). You have been lucky so far, if this is the first same sex aggressive issue that you have had. The more same sex dogs you have, the more likely you are to see this problem as they mature or you add more to the group. So something else to consider is that this may be something you have to deal with again down the road, even if you choose to rehome Bella.

Part of being able to house multiple dogs successfully is being knowledgeable about the combination of dogs that is more or less likely to succeed before you add a dog to the household.  The dog you like isn't necessarily the dog your dogs will like.  If inexperienced, and you have large dogs, try not to add dogs that are less than half the weight of your large dogs.  If you have a female, add a male next, perhaps.  Try not to add dogs closely spaced in age or of same gender (especially if they are same age).  If you know you have a dog that is intolerant of others, don't add another dog.  Don't adopt litter mates, especially females.  I could go on, but you get the picture.  Most trainers know this information, but seldom provide it as part of their classes - ask!  I think you will find that it isn't only me and AgileGSD who share the opinion that adding a dog to the household requires some thought beforehand.

Actually i think the OP is doing great, she only needs some pointers or increase the level of correction and follow trough. Saying that the corrections make the situation worse is non sense, most likely the behavior it's running its natural course regardless.

The OP is not rotating or rehoming yet so none of my posts have been directed to her

spiritdogs

Please take the time to re-read this salient point from AgileGSD:

It could be that it is just Amber that she will have a problem with but there is also a real chance that she may simpley be intolerant of sharing resources with same sex dogs in general. That means that once Zoey matures, Bella may have issues with her as well.

  Most dogs adapt to changing homes better than people adapt to parting with them. Most dogs also can adpat to new routines in the household pretty readily, if you choose to go with trying Rotatodog. It really depends on what works for you and your lifestyle.

 Edit to Add: I just realized looking at your Zoey pictures that you have several other female dogs of breeds prone to same sex aggression (Dobe/Rott mix, Bully mixes, ACD/Aussie mix). You have been lucky so far, if this is the first same sex aggressive issue that you have had. The more same sex dogs you have, the more likely you are to see this problem as they mature or you add more to the group. So something else to consider is that this may be something you have to deal with again down the road, even if you choose to rehome Bella.

Part of being able to house multiple dogs successfully is being knowledgeable about the combination of dogs that is more or less likely to succeed before you add a dog to the household.  The dog you like isn't necessarily the dog your dogs will like.  If inexperienced, and you have large dogs, try not to add dogs that are less than half the weight of your large dogs.  If you have a female, add a male next, perhaps.  Try not to add dogs closely spaced in age or of same gender (especially if they are same age).  If you know you have a dog that is intolerant of others, don't add another dog.  Don't adopt litter mates, especially females.  I could go on, but you get the picture.  Most trainers know this information, but seldom provide it as part of their classes - ask!  I think you will find that it isn't only me and AgileGSD who share the opinion that adding a dog to the household requires some thought beforehand.

I realize that now, I didn't know anything about same sex aggression before this, because i've always had all my dogs get along - and so far I've only had females! Obviously looking back I would've chose a male pup, but I have Zoey now & am going to try to keep her. I did wonder about that - if there will be a point where Bella & Zoey will go at it.

my friend's dog is female - we haven't really had any problems with her, if anything she's been the most behaved ever - she's finally getting to that age where she's mellowing out.

I'm going to have to assume that Akyra & Bella never got into it because Akyra didn't have the same sex aggression problem, I've never had a problem with Sheba either - both of them got along with 99% of dogs male or female.

Right now Bella & Amber are still separated, Amber is inside during the day, and Bella in the front yard. Amber gets put into a room when Bella is brought in. I've been giving Zoey supervised play time with Bella - because they do play well together. Sunday it was Bella, Zoey & Osa in the front yard - and no problems/fights all day.

We haven't had any of the 'cage' spars either ( doesn't mean its gone away). And my BF did a test - he put amber in the crate, then let Bella out ( with the vid cam set up so we could leave the area) and nothing happened. ( i know in my head i'm thinking 'oh ya use the little dog as bait sheesh';) So ya, i don't think that really means anything.

On the topic of Amber, bringing her into the pack was my BF's decision, I probably would've never brought a small dog into the house. ( I know that doesn't fix anything).

Still don't know if we're rehoming/re-training or whatever, mostly because this is my BF's call. they're his dogs. And I don't want to talk down about him, but he's not the type to get a trainer or educate himself about this issue. I've always been the one more interested in the dogs.  He's the type just to send one of them off somewhere to get 'fixed' and then hope it works out. or do rotatadog from here on out.

akyramoto82

I realize that now, I didn't know anything about same sex aggression before this, because i've always had all my dogs get along - and so far I've only had females! Obviously looking back I would've chose a male pup, but I have Zoey now & am going to try to keep her. I did wonder about that - if there will be a point where Bella & Zoey will go at it.

 You certainly aren't alone in that. When I got my second female GSD, I thought the breeders were being paranoid with all the warning about the risk that they will eventually start having serious fights. The breeder I got the second one from wasn't totally comfortable with me even trying to keep them together and felt I should have separated them from the start (they are the same age but the second one didn't come here untils he was over a year old). I had already lived with multiple intact males before who grew up together, were well spaced in age and got along fine, so I didn't understand what the issue was.

 So like many people, I learned fist hand that with certain breeds and lines it is pretty normal for females to be intolerant of other females. It has nothing to do with the owner being good or with the dog's relationship with the owner or with the dogs being well trained and socialized. It is a genetically wired behavior and to say it can just be trained out of them is is like saying sighthounds can be trained to not want to kill small prey animals in the yard. I know someone who returned a female GSD guide dog after he had her for several months because she was seriously attacking his other female dogs. You don't get much more well trained and socialized than a professionally trained guide dog but she still couldn't live with other adult female dogs.

 People often take their luck as a sign that they won't have problems in the future. I have heard from multiple people about same sex aggression when i mention it about GSDs "...but we had two GSD girls before and they were fine!" or "...but so and so has three (or four or five..) female GSDs who all get along fine!". It's true, some can live their whole lives with other females and have no isssues. Some aren't same sex aggressive, some are but are below their threshold for displaying it and some are but the right triggers haven't lined up at that point to trigger it. And some are "fine" until the day they aren't. The more you have, the greater the risk of same sex aggression being triggered. The closer in age they are, the more the risk of same sex aggression being triggered. And the more same sex dogs prone to same sex aggression you have, the greater the risk of same sex aggression being triggered.

akyramoto82

because i've always had all my dogs get along - and so far I've only had females!

akyramoto82

my friend's dog is female - we haven't really had any problems with her

akyramoto82

Akyra didn't have the same sex aggression problem, I've never had a problem with Sheba either - both of them got along with 99% of dogs male or female

3 good examples that tell us that "same sex aggression" it's only another excuse to blame the dogs to keep the human's ego intact, you should not listen to it because that will make you also put mental barriers yourself thinking "oh well, that's the way they are".

As you might well know females and females can live together. You had them, i had them and a lot of people out there have them, only because two of them dont does not mean is "breed predisposition"

It would not matter if they were male or female, there are dog males that dont get along with dog females but that does not mean they suffer from "different sex aggression"

I know people in this forum that have littermates GSD from the same sex and they are perfectly fine. This issue has nothing to do with sex, age, etc. It's just a dog that developed an issue.

espencer

I know people in this forum that have littermates GSD from the same sex and they are perfectly fine.

 Like I said, some are. Some aren't same sex aggressive. Some are but so far, the environment hasn't triggered it. Some are "fine" until they aren't :) Same sex aggressive girls generally don't have problems with outside dogs, so getting along with friend's dogs or daycare dogs or the dogs you see at the pet store doesn't mean much.

 I'm curious as to what the owner's ego has to do with keeping dogs safe by keeping them separated? It seems the owner certainly would have more to gain, ego-wise by being able to say "yep my dogs used to fight but I'm such a wonderful owner that I was able to train them to be best buddies!". I have yet to hear an actual account of an owner training their fighting bitches to be best buddies, after one or both have been really injured. The ones I have heard claim they did so, after more discussion say their dogs can't be left alone together and have to be strictly supervised always.

 This is a two part article by veterinary behaviorist Karen Overall on the subject of dog to dog aggression between housemates which appeared in DVM magazine. The first part describes a client who had a dog killed in a "pack fight" and the second describes common myths/misconceptions which contribute to interdog aggression and talks about prevention of the problem:

 http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=8417

I really feel for your situation. Your options of separating them or rehoming SUCK! Personally I don't know if I could commit to keeping dogs separated for years. I think it would become a burden after a while (for me anyways) and honestly I want my dogs to be part of my family. Being in the same home and living together are different. Of the 2, I would probably rehome.

I also wouldn't dismiss espencers's option out of hand. I kind of think like Chuffy. It is not something I would do myself however. I would absolutely seek out a reputable professional.  It never hurts to explore every option. At the end of the day it will either change your opinion or strengthen it.

AgileGSD

 This is a two part article by veterinary behaviorist Karen Overall on the subject of dog to dog aggression between housemates which appeared in DVM magazine. The first part describes a client who had a dog killed in a "pack fight" and the second describes common myths/misconceptions which contribute to interdog aggression and talks about prevention of the problem:

 http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=8417

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=17521

Those are really good articles. Thanks for sharing them. I'll keep copies handy for future reference.

denise m

I really feel for your situation. Your options of separating them or rehoming SUCK! Personally I don't know if I could commit to keeping dogs separated for years. I think it would become a burden after a while (for me anyways) and honestly I want my dogs to be part of my family.

 It actually gets easier as the years go by. It was a big adjustment when I first started having to separate the dogs. Now it is just a part of life. The dogs are still part of the family, they just are managed different than most people's dogs. In my case, the dog that is the problem is one of my favorite dogs ever so there was no way I was rehoming her. And for anyone with who having dogs be able to get along for sure is a big priority, be sure to always chose breeds and dogs carefully.

Another option would be walking the dogs together, one person each, the ritual of the walk will make them feel like they belong to the same pack.

After the walk then just do a regular positive association of Amber from far away, regularly when this needs to be done the dog is taught to ignore the other by looking at the owner and the dog gets rewarded. Since Bella can not ignore Amber 24/7 because they live in the same place, this time Bella should think that everytime Amber is there then a hot dog its placed on her mouth.

After a few weeks if Bella (under supervision and with a leash on) is safe to be close to Amber then probably the owners could have Amber have some type of attachable tray that contains the hotdogs so Bella can take them from it

Amber should be the "hot dog bringer" for Bella

Does that sound like a better plan?

I personally would add a correction if Bella displays an aggressive behavior from far away towards Amber to make the message more clear and get the results Ian Dumbar says of up to 97% of success. This way Bella will now what we want her to do AND what we dont want her to do too

If the owners rather to take only the 85% of sucess by not using corrections as well then they can take that route too

espencer

I personally would add a correction if Bella displays an aggressive behavior from far away towards Amber to make the message more clear and get the results Ian Dumbar says of up to 97% of success. This way Bella will now what we want her to do AND what we dont want her to do too

The OP has already stated that using corrections has made this situation work. I think it is important to actually listen to the OP, as she/he is the one who actually lives with these dogs.

espencer

If the owners rather to take only the 85% of sucess by not using corrections as well then they can take that route too

There are more ways than choosing to use P+ to get dogs to live together harmoniously, if they can live harmoniously together. Gaci, who was (is) DA, can work harmoniously around other dogs, go on large "pack walks" with groups of dogs, and lives harmoniously with Shimmer now, who two and a half years ago tore a large hole through her ear and a year before that caused injuries that required surgical repair to another female she lived with. Not once were punishments used to get there, and more than two years in she has not aggressed towards another dog inappropriately since then. You can't put a percent success rate on aggression - there are no guarantees in life - it's always available as an option to the dog if the environment calls for it. But you can get to the same end result without using those punishments.  Much like an alcoholic changes their lifestyle and builds new skills in coping, so do a dog who experiences aggression. The dog learns new skills, the dog learns new routines, and they live a new lifestyle, but if the circumstances called for it, a dog will rely on aggression once again in its life.

So if the OP feels that the punishments made it worse, the last thing we should be doing is to suggest adding more punishments to the dog's environment.

On another topic - Agile, would you be interested in sharing your own personal story of how you use rotating dogs to work for your lifestyle? Perhaps sharing a typical day's routine would shed some light for the OP in how it works for you.