Help, Bella attacked Amber

Kim_MacMillan

So if the OP feels that the punishments made it worse, the last thing we should be doing is to suggest adding more punishments to the dog's environment.

Seriously, are we going to spend 25 more pages discussing this or we are just going to give suggestions? Thats my suggestion and the OP can follow it or not.

If i say that i dont use clicker training because it will make my dog fat, making the situation worse because he is just not learning only but gaining weight also. Are you going to accept what i say and go with it because "i'm the one who lives with my dog"? Or are you going to tell me then how it should be properly used? I already addressed the "corrections make it worse" issue on an earlier post

Is someone here experienced in corrections?

It would absolutely kill me to have to rehome a dog that I loved. But it would also absolutely kill me to keep  one crated while the other is running around having fun.      But more than anything...... I already posted the story of the dog at work that was almost killed twice....by the same dog in the house, because someone in the house made a mistake and accidentally let them get together.   I also know about Bubblegums breeder...who accidentally didn't close a crate door well and one female got out after another that was already out.  The breeder ended up in the hospital after trying to break that one up.   That said.....you guys doing the rotating might know what you are doing......but I wouldn't be doing that...any more than I would trust those two dogs together unless under strict supervision.

dyan

because someone in the house made a mistake and accidentally let them get together;

dyan

It would absolutely kill be to have to rehome a dog that I loved. But it would also absolutely kill me to keep  one crated while the other is running around having fun.      But more than anything...... I already posted the story of the dog at work that was almost killed twice....by the same dog in the house, because someone in the house made a mistake and accidentally let them get together.   I also know about Bubblegums breeder...who accidentally didn't close a crate door well and one female got out after another that was already out.  The breeder ended up in the hospital after trying to break that one up.  

 If you have dogs who are that aggressive with each other, part of proper management is to have at least two barriers between them at all times. That means at least two things have to fail before the dogs can get together. Mine are separated by floors - one stays in the upstairs of the house, one stays in the downstairs. There is a gate at the top of the steps going upstairs and there is a door at the bottom when is never, ever left open. When no one is home, the one staying upstairs is crated. That means that when people are home, two barriers (the gate and the never, ever left open door) have to fail before the dogs get together. And when no one is home, three barriers have to fail before the dogs could get together (the gate, the never, ever left open door and the crate). It is very important to get everyone in the household following the same plan. It would be extremely hard to do if you have young kids, in that case rehoming would probably be the best option, along with choosing breeds who are noted for ability to get along with other dogs.

  I won't say Rotatodog isn "easy". Certainly not as easy as having dogs who all get along without fail. I can't say it is my ideal dog owning situation either. But I am the one who choose breeds more prone to having same sex issues and I choose to have multiple dogs. I could have gotten.... I dunno... Foxhounds instead ;) And there are other aspects of proper management of dogs that aren't always "easy" but have to be done - for example, keeping your dog from roaming requires a fence or tie out that is always secure or lots of training and supervision.

espencer

Kim_MacMillan

So if the OP feels that the punishments made it worse, the last thing we should be doing is to suggest adding more punishments to the dog's environment.

Seriously, are we going to spend 25 more pages discussing this or we are just going to give suggestions? Thats my suggestion and the OP can follow it or not.

If i say that i dont use clicker training because it will make my dog fat, making the situation worse because he is just not learning only but gaining weight also. Are you going to accept what i say and go with it because "i'm the one who lives with my dog"? Or are you going to tell me then how it should be properly used? I already addressed the "corrections make it worse" issue on an earlier post

Is someone here experienced in corrections?

Espencer, apparently you know nothing about clicker training or you would realize that it does not have to make your dog fat.  Most of us simply reserve a portion of our dog's kibble and break it up into tiny pieces.  The dog doesn't get "extra", he simply gets part of his dinner as treats.

I am well experienced in corrections, because years ago that's how dogs were trained.  Thankfully, I have learned from my mistakes, and no longer employ those methods.  If I correct a dog, which I rarely ever do, the correction would hopefully be impeccably timed, fair, and not associated with the object of the dog's anger.  Sometimes, you can correct an aggressive dog and make the situation worse, because he associates the punishment with the dog he was busy hating at the time he got corrected.  

I would like to know how many aggressive dogs in similar situations you have "rehabilitated", because if you have no experience with this yourself, it seems foolish to advise someone who is in the midst of a situation where an error in judgment could mean severe consequences for one of her dogs. It's much more prudent, if you have no idea what you are really talking about, to suggest that she get professional advice.

espencer

Those of us who have used corrections to address this type of behavior I think would be in a better position to understand your situation than those who have not use them

Oh... I have the answer then. Some time in the dim dark past i used a ton of corrections. I WOULD NOT use corrections in this situation, IMHO anyone who does is a hack. Notice my opinion.

I might use time outs, but i would get some help from a good positive trainer with a range a whole lot deeper than watching a TV programme or two.  I would get the dog checked out by a Vet.

I wouldn't listen to this guilt ridden garbage about dogs always getting aiong. They do if you supress them heavily and ecercise them in a large packs on skates. I am not sure that it works on a bicycle :)))) (That is meant to be humour..)

My dogs don't accept all other dogs. I don't believe that they have to. 

My dogs don't accept all other dogs. I don't believe that they have to.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  Dogs pick their own friends.  The fact is, we force dogs to live in unnatural social groups that they wouldn't necessarily choose on their own.  And, we think that we can make them behave like little furry humans.  Guess what?  They're dogs.  (Albeit, a wonderful and amazing species all on their own.)  We can modify their behavior, especially in our presence, but in the final analysis, when they are stressed or we are not there, their default behaviors are almost always canine, not human.  Just as we can't resist the temptation to hug our friends, they can't resist the temptation to sniff butt;-)  

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, but is worth noting.  When you are dealing with predatory aggression, you cannot change the hard-wiring that says something is prey, especially when a dog is already in chase mode.  With a dog that has a pretty much 100% recall, you still have to issue the cue about a millisecond before the dog goes in to the "zone" where he is focused on the "prey" and will not hear you.  The magnificence of really good training is a partnership where the dog is absolutely well conditioned to respond, and the human *notices* the signs that he/she should issue that cue.  In large dog/small dog relationships, sometimes "predatory drift" occurs, where the smaller dog runs, and the larger dog doesn't recognize his buddy as his buddy any more...and tragedy strikes.  The situation our OP has described does not sound like predatory drift, and is more likely a case of two dogs simply not liking one another, perhaps having traded threatening glances that went unnoticed for quite some time.  Many dogs simply don't tolerate "outsiders" after a certain developmental period has passed, others have a same sex bias, still others become barrier aggressive while one is crated and others are not (this is one reason that when I crate Sequoyah, if Sioux is going to be hanging out in the same room, I crate her, too), and sometimes, the explanation of what went wrong escapes the inadequacies of humans reading dog language.  But, PoodleOwned is right, and anyone who ever really watches dog play groups knows that some dogs *never* play with certain other dogs, no matter how socially appropriate they seem.  It isn't until you watch and deal with dogs for a long time that these truths become self evident. 

AgileGSD

If you have dogs who are that aggressive with each other, part of proper management is to have at least two barriers between them at all times. That means at least two things have to fail before the dogs can get together. Mine are separated by floors - one stays in the upstairs of the house, one stays in the downstairs. There is a gate at the top of the steps going upstairs and there is a door at the bottom when is never, ever left open. When no one is home, the one staying upstairs is crated. That means that when people are home, two barriers (the gate and the never, ever left open door) have to fail before the dogs get together. And when no one is home, three barriers have to fail before the dogs could get together (the gate, the never, ever left open door and the crate). It is very important to get everyone in the household following the same plan. It would be extremely hard to do if you have young kids, in that case rehoming would probably be the best option, along with choosing breeds who are noted for ability to get along with other dogs.

I like how you pretty much take away any of the dogs' stress. Studies show that stress (panic, anger, fear, etc) can stay in the system for days and having one incident after another is, obviously, not a good way to live for a dog.

So, kudos to you on this!

PS--I had a Walker hound and yes, I had different management tools I had to use with her. (The snooping, oh the snooping! She never paid attention to cars, me, or anybody when she was on a hunt so it was up to me to keep her safe.)

spiritdogs

 . . . and anyone who ever really watches dog play groups knows that some dogs *never* play with certain other dogs, no matter how socially appropriate they seem.  It isn't until you watch and deal with dogs for a long time that these truths become self evident. 

So true. At my dogs' daycare (years ago) there was this dog, Rio, who couldn't get anyone to play with him, no matter what. One day the group went outside and there was Rio, humping every single dog around him. They all chased him down and pulled him to the ground, Ellie included! (She was the first to catch him.)

Everyone watching burst out laughing because we all figured they had had enough of Rio's RUDE behavior with the other dogs. I mean, c'mon man, get a social skill.

Reminds me of somebody at work . . .

spiritdogs

apparently you know nothing about clicker training or you would realize that it does not have to make your dog fat.  Most of us simply reserve a portion of our dog's kibble and break it up into tiny pieces.  The dog doesn't get "extra", he simply gets part of his dinner as treats.

It seems that you didnt notice the point on my post (i know exactly how clicker training works), not because someone says the technique didnt work or made things worse "because they are the ones living with the dogs", that means the technique was used properly or even had an effect on the dog whatsoever

spiritdogs

I would like to know how many aggressive dogs in similar situations you have "rehabilitated"

I already touched that point in an earlier post

spiritdogs

It's much more prudent......to suggest that she get professional advice.

I already did

Moderator Speaking

I am beyond tired of "ignoring unwanted behaviors" and/or "nagging corrections".  If there is one more post in this thread that personally addresses another poster who is NOT the OP, attempting to evaluate their skills/methods/experience for validity to this thread, it will be edited in its entirety, regardless of whatever positive contribution may be made to the thread.  Take it to PMs, or "leave it".  I've had it, your fellow forum members have had it, enough is enough.

 Update, still doing rotatadog right now. I think it's wearing thin on my BF, he said he might try to re-home Amber with our friend's mom ( who just adores Amber). He feel like Bella can be worked with, but Amber would be safer living in a different home ( yet one where he could still visit with her).

Right now Bella is always in the front yard & amber in the house ( they're not both crated all day).

 I'm still not going to use corrections with Bella, if we did try help make Amber good in her eyes with training, if she crossed her threshold, we would simply remove her from the situation. Part of this is almost 'rehabilitating' Bella, I dont think we really ever addressed her fearfulness or unsureness in certain situations.

Looking back there were alot of times that she shouldve been removed from a situation until she could compose her self & relax.

( my friend does this with her dog, she can tell when Osa isn't in the right state of mind to play with other dogs or meet another dog, so she'll simply sit with her until she relaxes & isn't anxious, then she can go meet, and she does alot better than if she was release in over excited state).

I think also my BF is looking back thinking 'hmm wow I couldve spent more time training her - he kinda just let her be a dog, she learned basic stuff like dont jump on people, wait for your food, sit, lay down etc. but I dont think there was a really good bond there, like you get when you actually *train*, dont get me wrong this dog LOVES us - but you can see that she's just always unsure what she has to do to get more attention.

 My BF was never very firm with her - as in rules, not corrections. If I'm around, no dogs on the couch without an invitaion. But I constantly catch him letting Bella & Amber slink their little butts up there & he doesn't *notice*. So they get mixed signals constantly, one time he'll let them up, next time he'll stick to the 'invite only' rule.

 I have been contacting trainers, but there are not many in this area, and the ones I contact either do not respond or have moved from the area.

I know that we can't 'train' this out of her, but it least it gives my BF an opportunity to decide if he wants to better his relationship with his dog(s).

akyramoto82

honestly would never trust Bella around Amber ever again. Bella is about 50lbs, and Amber is only about 25 or so. think Shepard/pit mix vs poodle mix.

I always like to lead any issue this serious with the need to get a check up from a vet and work with a good trainer  Poodles, particually the small ones can be notoriously bad at backing down. Both of mine are like this and i note that his has been quantified and has been researched. What is heartening is that my older girl is finally showing appeasement signals... at the age of four. So you have to work with this. I can tell you that corrections will NOT teach your dogs appeasement signals!! or take it  down a rung or two in it's pack.They still will go away and redirect towards other pack members and start to avoid you.

There are many types of aggression . Spiritdogs has talked about predatory drift (which occurs in one part of the brain ) , and there is if you like annyance type or Rage aggression, a bit like humans  who get annoyed with something, and fear agression which occurs in another part of the brain. They all have different electrical and chemical signals and feel different to the dog . The range is huge. Predatory aggression is highly pleasurable to the dog, and fear aggression is not for example.

akyramoto82

 I have been contacting trainers, but there are not many in this area, and the ones I contact either do not respond or have moved from the area.

http://www.therightsteps.com/contactinfo.htm

This is the place we used and Cindy (the owner) is who we met with. We went to her training site in Orangevale, so it's not too far for you. She had us bring both of our dogs and she observed them together and then interacted/played with them separately. I think we were there for about an hour and she shared her thoughts with us but then followed up with a long letter outlining her thoughts and recommendations. It was very worthwhile.

I'd never heard the term "predatory shift" until recently but I'm curious what exactly it is. Maybe I can google it and get more information but if anyone has any links they can share, I'd appreciate it.

cakana

I'd never heard the term "predatory shift" until recently but I'm curious what exactly it is. Maybe I can google it and get more information but if anyone has any links they can share, I'd appreciate it.

I started a new thread, because I suspect a lot of folks would like more information on that topic.  http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/103467/830232.aspx#830232