Help, Bella attacked Amber

 Seems like a new website, and maybe that's why, but I didn't notice who the behavior professional is.  Maybe I just missed it?

Hey everyone, i wanted to give an update on Bella & Amber,  so we've been doing rota-dog for a long time now. My BF will let Amber & bella together for VERY short periods of time i.e. crate changes etc. so less than 3 min. this is his choice not mine, so please don't get mad at me, i just wanted to update everyone on the situation.

last night I was out in the garden and Amber was running around being 'farm dog'. My BF asked if he should let Bella out. I told him it was up to him.  He let Bella out, immediately Amber ran up to her and was in her face, I could tell by Bella's posture she was very uncomfortable, so I went & got Bella & told Amber to go away ( at the same time my BF was calling amber to him - and she went). I sat with Bella - she was shaking, so I waited til she calmed down. telling her that everything was ok, and that she was  a good dog.

I wanna give some background on what I've been doing with both dogs lately - even got my BF to help on some stuff. I've been clicker training them. i know that they're 'cross over' dogs, so it takes longer. But both LOVE it. Bella who is very unsure to begin with, is now waggin her tail looking at me like ' oh boy oh boy, what do you want me to do!?!' I even had her going through a little kid tunnel ( like an agility tunnel), same thing with Amber.

So they both kinda know what the clicker is, although they both think if they hang around me long enough there will be a click & food. i think this is very good for bella, since it seems like her whole life shes been very unsure of herself ( the way she turns into a puddle when she doesn't know what to do.) and is used to only having 'NO' or 'QUIT' as a reinforcement. now that's changed. for example when Osa was here, Bella was present, i immediatly took note that Bella was uncomfortable ( she wasn't growling, snapping, or had her hair up) I could just tell that she was nervous, so I quietly took her into the other area of the house to relax, I didn't yell at her, or tell her to quit, I just recognized that she needed a little help in that situation. So she stayed in that area for 30-45 minutes just to chill out and have her own space and not feel threatened. Then I brought her out, and she was fine. She didn't look uncomfortable around Osa for the rest of the day

so i think part of our problem was not recognizing when our dog needed a little personal space, instead we just kinda told her to 'suck it up' and deal with it.

so on to last night, after bella had a break we played in the yard, and Amber was there the whole time - i had my BF grab me my clicker & treat bag while they were seperate. After that they were around each other & everytime Bella was next to Amber I C/T, the whole time Bella was not even interested in Amber, needless to say they both got alot of treats last night for being so good.  I want to remind you that they were closely supervised, with my BF present also. If I felt like there was too much interaction I had bella walk with me and my BF had amber go with him.

I don't know if it was progress, but they coexisted in a large area with no problems. Today its back to rota-dog. but I'm happy about the small success Bella & Amber had last night. And there are many who say they wouldn't even attempted what we did, but once again I want to stress that these are my BF's dogs, I can't make him see a behaviorist or get a trainer, but I will support him in any way with training his dogs - YES i have stressed many times to read the books that I bought on the situation lol. but ya, these are his choices, and I will do what I can to make sure that both dogs are safe without impeding on him as an owner of these two dogs.

...everytime Bella was next to Amber I C/T, the whole time Bella was not even interested in Amber, needless to say they both got alot of treats last night for being so good

As long as you didn't accidentally C/T any behavior that was indicative of aggressive or distance-increasing signals, and you were simply C/T'ing for quiet relaxed behavior, that's a very good thing because you are essentially teaching one dog that the presence of the other dog is a predictor of good things happening.

spiritdogs

 

...everytime Bella was next to Amber I C/T, the whole time Bella was not even interested in Amber, needless to say they both got alot of treats last night for being so good

As long as you didn't accidentally C/T any behavior that was indicative of aggressive or distance-increasing signals, and you were simply C/T'ing for quiet relaxed behavior, that's a very good thing because you are essentially teaching one dog that the presence of the other dog is a predictor of good things happening.

Yup thats the plan, Amber = good times. lol

 another update :)

Bella & Amber have been having more free time together - not unsupervised though, they can hang out when we're around. We've had no issues at all with Bella being or acting aggressive towards Amber. Just last night we were all sitting on the floor playing a new ps3 game and Bella and Amber were just hanging out. We haven't punished Bella for any bad behavior - we've pretty much switched over to positive only.  It's been a long time since I've had to remove Bella from a situation where she was uncomfortable ( probably about 4 months!). I still pay attention to her alot, to make sure she isn't being overwhelmed.

 We still keep them seperated when we're not home, just because if something were to happen Amber wouldn't stand a chance.  Zoey gets along well with Amber too, she does want to herd her though! LOL small, fluffy, you need to be rounded up!

but I'd say we're 75% back to normal, and it's nice. I can only really say what *I* think has made a difference is being more positive with the dogs. They all seem happier overall -together and apart. It's very clear to me that the old way wasn't the right way.

I'm thrilled for you ALL!   But I have to say that I hope you never think you can trust them 100%...meaning enough to feel that you can leave them alone together.  As you said, Amber wouldn't stand a chance.

akyramoto82

but I'd say we're 75% back to normal, and it's nice. I can only really say what *I* think has made a difference is being more positive with the dogs. They all seem happier overall -together and apart. It's very clear to me that the old way wasn't the right way.

I'm so glad you've had success. 

 Me, too.  Glad things are going well. 

akyramoto82

LOL small, fluffy, you need to be rounded up!

The late miss Fergie spent the last five years of her life being rounded up - and loved it.  She and Sequoyah were always together whenever Fergs was roaming the house (usually UNDER Sequoyah, who would herd her by keeping her in between her legs - sniff - wish I had taken video of that).

 I sure hope you can resolve this without re-homing either one. I agree that re-homing an aggressive dog is just like passing your problems on to someone else. I think you may be close to the root of the problem with your thought on pack re-order. Still, there are ways of dealing with this, without doing something drastic. Without more information about what went on when you were out of the room, we're all just guessing. There may have been a possessive issue with a toy, food, favorite blanket or even favorite spot to lay down. It may be worth turning on a web cam while you are out of the room. Most laptops have them built in or you can buy one for $70-100. 

There are many good articles and videos on aggression between dogs in the home. I like the idea of some sessions with a positive reinforcement trainer. You just shouldn't have to choose between the dogs.

That's my two cents worth.

 Good luck....

Steve

 Um, have you even read this thread?

 Things are still going ok ( except for the next paragraph), my BF has let them be together unsupervised for some time ( his doing not mine) and things were awesome for a long time.

 the other evening a fight broke out ( i was in bed) over something on the patio - we almost think - and we're speculating, that our (non dog) friend might've tossed a chewy that was on the table onto the ground. But anyways a scuffle broke out and my BF separated them, but got bit by Amber in the middle of it. So I got woke up at midnight to him asking for first aid help - yup it was borderline stitches. and him saying that one was going to have to 'go'. ( and personally I think dogs are creatures of habit most of the time, I don't really think they like being up late, outside and hungry, so they were already kinda *ready* to go to bed anyhow, which may have raised tension between the two-imo)

that was over a week ago, and nothing has happened, the two have been together again supervised, but when we're not here they're in separate yards. So  that's def a backslide. and no word on if either of them are 'going'. I personally feel Amber would be easier to rehome in a single dog situation. I think Bella needs to stay with us.

 So yes, it can work, but it can't at the same time. Obviously everything that has gone on hasn't been 'enough' for my BF to do anything about it.

I don't really feel like Bella is truly aggressive, she's just a nervous and unsure dog. ( and she actually did fantastic at the dog fest we took her & zoe to )  And I like knowing that now, I think i had said previously that i had to remove her because she started lip curling @ Osa. I gave her a break and she seemed much more relaxed.

I think both dogs could benefit from individual time & training, which they don't really get. yes they both get to sit on the couch with my BF, but for me dogs need more and thats why I spend so much time with my pup.

so whatever it was, we won't really know, for now, AGAIN, they're separated unless supervised. I guess that's just life at the moment.

 I think your BF needs to realize that these dogs are safer apart, even if it means crate and rotate.  And, this time, I think this should be a permanent situation.  Dogs that have little bite inhibition do damage when they redirect on a human, and you shouldn't be risking anyone getting hurt, especially anyone outside your family, such as guests, or, heaven forbid, a child who might be visiting.

I would like to remind you of this paragraph posted by AgileGSD at the beginning of this thread:

IMO most GSDs have the genetic tendency towards same sex aggression. Some are put into situations in their life which trigger it and some are not. Same sex aggression is often, at it's base seems to be about resources. Dogs with strong tendency towards same sex aggression have a lowered threshold of how many same sex dogs they will tolerate sharing resources with. For some it takes just one other dog, for others it can take three, four or more to trigger the same response. With some it may be living with another female too close to the same age as them. And it can also be triggered by a change in the group (new dogs brought in or the death of an old dog) or by one certain dog's behavior. Or a certain combination of these things.

The other variable is that the Pit part of a Pit/GSD combo can also be genetically prone to same sex aggression, as many terrier breeds are.   

Training is not the exactly the same as behavior modification, so the fact that you would teach them commands does not absolve you of teaching them a different emotional response to one another.  If they simply had an occasional tiff, that's one thing, but dogs that puncture when they have tiffs are a different ball game and require a higher level of management.  If your BF insists that the dogs be allowed contact, or he can't exist in a highly managed house hold, perhaps it would be better to re home one of them.  It's very difficult to re home a dog that has bitten a human, and now Amber has:-(

I've followed your thread and am sorry this happened.  I cannot offer advice, as I wouldn't know as much as you've learned already.

Well, sounds like you're hanging in there and (unfortunately) rehoming might be your only option if this can't be resolved.

Having just read on another forum where the management system failed after years of success, a person was bitten, two dogs got into a fight, one dog was seized by authorities, and the other dog was euthed by the owner...I can't stress enough that you seek resolution over management. All it takes is a split second, and disaster can happen.

I'm not in favor of management in the long term, especially if the human members of the household aren't working 100% together. Baby gates, rotation, muzzling, separating, and even medication can be helpful while you're working to resolve your dog's issues. But it's not a substitute for resolving the dog's issues.

Long term management is not resolution. It's like playing russian roulett with human error being the bullet in the chamber. Frankly, I'm surprised when I hear trainers actually teaching it as a long term or primary solution to a dog's problem.