GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS

willowchow

That's unreal if they are really misrepresenting important info like that!  Is that even legal?  WTH?? 

I suppose if they have to put minimums on the ingredient list, that is probably what all the companies do.... put the minimums on.

Now.... how much that varies from company to company would be an interesting subject.

willowchow

And, I never was a huge fan of the Great Dane Lady.  I just don't get how a food can be so great and you've got to add this, that and every other thing to it.  I know others swear by her, and that's fine, everyone has to do what they feel is best.

Because she raises Danes....had danes die of bloat on her....had tons of growth problems with them....and....if you read her website to what she says about the food....you can understand...... in fact just a little excerpt from her website:

Q:Kathy: Is it true that one of the best commercial dog foods on the market actually came about because of your National Bone Survey published in the Great Dane Reporter?

A:Linda: Yes, that is right. I took all the information from the Bone Survey, over 700 Great Dane cases of veterinarian diagnosed bone diseases. I included all nutritional background on each animal and I sent it to companies asking for help. I told them we needed a quality tri-protein based, but moderate protein, moderate fat diet to raise the giant dogs. A food that allows the dogs to grow slow and even, yet get the nutrients necessary for growth.

I mailed, at my own expense, packets of information to Iams, Eagle, Science Diet and Nutro. The only company that responded was Mr. Joe Cocquyt of Eagle Co. Joe called me and asked me to meet him and John Marsman in Kokomo at the Denny's restaurant. Four hours later they left with an idea of what the giant breeds need in a food.

Out of the meeting was born the Eagle Natural Pack (23%/12%) and Joe let me set up feed trials across the nation using Dane litters before the food was put on the market. I did an interview with the owner of Eagle Dog Foods and it can also be accessed from this website by going to the Index Of Articles.

But keep in mind Lori...not all Dane owners or giant breed owners use EP....many have not had good luck with it just as many have not had good luck with any food.

stanton

Dyan....if you're not giving heartworm prevention, then just how are you preventing your dogs from getting heartworms?

I do give my dogs HW prevention....and don't like any of it at all.  But my Bubblegum did not have a problem... and so far my Gibby hasn't had a problem....so I will start him up again in the spring.  I will not give it all year around though...nor will I give flea prevention unless he gets fleas.  My son does not give his Dane any though...Ollie is almost 8 yrs old....but had a bad start after his start on vaccines. He had tons of skin and health issues, and had to go to a specialist.  He was allergic to a few things...Mike gave him allergy shots and decided not to suppress his immune system any more with vaccines.  At first he was still taking Ollie for HW tests.....and said he will treat him IF and WHEN he needs to be treated.

Keep in mind...we live in the cold states.....and Ollie is not often outside besides.

dyan

Thats funny...any time I have ever contacted John, he has always answered.  But you know what...he frequents this forum...I bet he will have an answer.  I sure am not going to answer for them. First...I have never read much about what Linda says about Calcium but rather keeping the protein level down on GD puppies.      I'm sure John from Eagle would love to know your thoughts though

You answered that much better than my original thought. I emailed Eagle Pack and John emailed me back, when he had the chance. He is actually a busy man. And he even remembered from his time in our forum.

I will continue to feed Eagle Pack because it is working. Shadow is 5.5 years old, getting gray in the muzzle, and he's still running zoomies and his coat is excellent. He likes the food. It's about twice as expensive per pound as Nutro was but the formula is working and that's what counts for me. I'm not worried about price per pound. Feeding him what he needs is more important.

ETA:

The link provided by one of the posters in this thread is to another forum, for Labs. In it, a person said they called Eagle Pack and was told that the calcium level in the puppy formula was 2.06. Which is not shown at all on the Eagle Pack website, I just checked. So, who did they talk to? If John is so hard to get ahold of, it couldn't be him, and he is the public liaison for the company. IOW, who at Eagle Pack said the calcium in the puppy formula was 2.06? Yes the food will have a minimum and it may vary slightly. I bet it varies less than most homecooked recipes. According to Dr. Remilliard, most of the home recipes she reviewed for clients were usually unbalanced in calcium, usually too low, if I remember correctly.

Also, most of the measurements are pre-processing. The numbers you see on the bag may vary slightly from as-fed. There can be losses due to processes, and particulate fines from shipping and storage. Of course, one could always check by getting blood work done on one's dog.

The other thing to remember is that amongst the different large breeds, Great Danes showed a bone growth problem if fed too much calcium as it intereferes with their thyroid function. You won't necessarily have the same effect on other large but not giant breeds.

But I would certainly advise that if a person has an issue with something Linda Arndt said, one could always check it with John Marsman. Or ask Linda directly. She answered me, as well, as I had questions as to which formula to best feed to Shadow.

That strikes me as weird (and not good) for the EP large breed puppy only listing minimum values.   Most companies (Innova, etc) put maximum values for calcium in their large breed puppy formulas on their site.

willowchow

I just don't get how a food can be so great and you've got to add this, that and every other thing to it. 

Lori,,,it occured to me that you wrote this, and I had to come back to ask why?  Who said you had to add anything to EP,,,or any other food for that matter?  Some of us ( including you too ) just try to do the best we can for our dogs.  My policy is to put REAL food on top of kibble... I feel to prevent bloat...maybe adding real fresh food will help.  I add a probiotic also for the same reason...but would add that to any food...fresh, frozen, raw, canned or kibble.   But I am not sure why you think you have to add anything to it.

I've been forced to conclude that The great dane lady really knows very little about biology and physiology. She was a force for good in the initial study of health problems plaguing large breed dogs, but she's fallen for too many quack remedies and weirdo off-the-wall ideas in the past two years for me to take anything she says these days seriously. Her rants about yeast causing all problems are a case in point.

fish n dog

 What you posted is the Min.... What is actually in the Puppy Kibble for Lg. breed Puppies is a whopping 2.06... This is called the N/A  or real life figure after analysis after processing....

 

So they post that low figure on their Web site... letting you think it is within the magic 1.5 range.. Well it is not and you would only know by calling...

 

So okay..... I see your right....it does say minimum.

However...just for the fun of it... I looked up a lot of premium dog foods...and while there was one or two that didn't say minimum ( one did say maximum another just said nothing )  most that I looked at said minimum.   So that be the case...we would need to "call" most of the companies ( if not all ) for find out exactly how much they have in their food.

Mudpuppy...I don't know about the yeast that GDL talks about.... I sure wouldn't comment too much about it..but will say that several of my "health" friends are very into the fact that yeast causes so many health problems....these are not dog owners. Knowing how strong they feel about it...I would tend to agree that it could affect dogs as well.

However...I do feel GDL is "into" a lot of questionable health and wellness products that sound kind of weird.....but to me that tends to go along with the "health nut" conversation.  She is into the same thinking for humans also.

dyan

However...I do feel GDL is "into" a lot of questionable health and wellness products that sound kind of weird.....but to me that tends to go along with the "health nut" conversation.  She is into the same thinking for humans also.

This brings up another point in my mind, regardless of GDL's nutritional knowledge or lack thereof. Many here have espoused holistic brands and blends as if they are the next best thing to feeding raw. When I came here in Sept. 2005, Innova was the penultimate of dog foods and it was essentially a holistic blend that happened to have meat first. I'm about to hurt some feelings so, hold on. In many instances, I have thought of some holistic movements and ideas as on par with snake oil. But I tried it anyway because I don't know everything and readily admit that. It didn't work for us but I still think it's a good food. And we have a number of people that are gung-ho for holistics and swear by it, yet now, GDL is "weird" because she's getting into "alternative" health solutions? Hey, Pot, meet Kettle. From the Holy Bible, "Before you can cast out the splinter in your neighbor's eye, you must first remove the log that is stuck in your eye."

I don't see the GDL as any more "loopy" than a number of people goo-goo for the holistic movement. And many food companies have followed it, too, per market pressure. Garlic in dog food. Garlic is from the onion family. Onions are toxic to dogs. There is a sulfide in onions that creates hemolytic anemia in dogs. No one knows if garlic may have the same effect but people keep putting it in dog food because we humans think it's good for us. Chondroitin and Glucosamine has never been proven clinically in any creature, human or animal, to give long term benefit in bones and joints and cartilege. Yet we humans take it and put it in our dog food. Nowadays, we don't sell snake oil. Now, it's fish oil. It may do good. But how is GDL any worse than that? Now, holistics are accepted but they weren't always such.

And yes, I take some vitamins and herbal supplements, sometimes. And some time, between 70 and 100, around 84, if you must know, I will die.

ron2

I don't see the GDL as any more "loopy" than a number of people goo-goo for the holistic movement. And many food companies have followed it, too, per market pressure. Garlic in dog food. Garlic is from the onion family. Onions are toxic to dogs. There is a sulfide in onions that creates hemolytic anemia in dogs. No one knows if garlic may have the same effect but people keep putting it in dog food because we humans think it's good for us. Chondroitin and Glucosamine has never been proven clinically in any creature, human or animal, to give long term benefit in bones and joints and cartilege.

  I think the reason so many members prefer holistic foods is because of the ingredients; better protein sources, such as meat or meat meal first instead of grains, and whole grains listed instead of glutens or fractions like brewers rice. I will say though that before she went on a home cooked diet, Jessie did best on Nutro Lamb (this was a year ago before the formula change) and a RX diet she had this summer by Royal Canin called Skin Support 21. She had done well on holistic foods but had problems with a dry coat and dandruff; the Nutro and SS21 cleared up her dandruff because of the extra zinc, linoleic acid, and higher amount of b vitamins they had. My vet said that studies show that putting dogs on joint supplements while they're younger can delay arthritis. If you'd like, I can ask him about the studies when Jessie goes in for her annual exam next week.

Your absolutely right Ron.   The same conversation could be put to humans. Some people think taking vitamins, and supplements are nuts...other think they are keeping them alive.  

I believe most, if not all of the food companies are adding a blueberry or two...or a carrot or something that they can call it holistic...and they have to because that is the popular thing right now. Probably due to the dog forums.   I have seen how EP has changed a lot just since we have been buying it...which is really not that long.   The test trials were done with the natural formula of EP...... and GDL still recommends it.  But she does throw in OR holistic.   I have always purchased the natural formula...but feel guilty not rotating with a holistic formula. 

Chondroitin and Glucosamine are suggested by many vets and doctors....and yet read some of the articles that get put into the newspaper...that claim they do nothing.  I can tell you I make sure its in my dog food...I'm not taking any chances!  

ron2

But how is GDL any worse than that?

ron2

From the Holy Bible, "Before you can cast out the splinter in your neighbor's eye, you must first remove the log that is stuck in your eye."

ROFL!!!

Ya' know what your Sunday School teacher would say about this, don't ya' Ron? 

Carry on, I just couldn't pass this one up.

  I sure wouldn't comment too much about it..but will say that several of my "health" friends are very into the fact that yeast causes so many health problems....these are not dog owners. Knowing how strong they feel about it...I would tend to agree that it could affect dogs as well.

except that it doesn't in either dog or human. How strong people feel about things has no correlation with truth. It's the current "quack cause of everything" fad. Only seriously immunosuppressed individuals have health problems from yeast.

mudpuppy

except that it doesn't in either dog or human. How strong people feel about things has no correlation with truth. It's the current "quack cause of everything" fad. Only seriously immunosuppressed individuals have health problems from yeast.

Perhaps!  Since a lot of doctors are giving medication for it though...I don't know. 

 Its not very current either. Years ago is when I started reading about yeast problems in humans. It is like the conversation above.... some people think taking vitamins and supplements are quackery also......

Ron, there's not many studies here because the pharmaceutical companies have no incentive to study a substance that cannot be patented.  It would be as if someone realized quail eggs cure cancer.  People would just eat them, they wouldn't wait for the drug companies to sponsor studies to confirm it.  Either it works or it doesn't - the anecdotal body of evidence has gotten so dense now that doctors freely "prescribe" GAGs of various types for joint inflammation.

From Drs. Foster and Smith, those real whackjob holistic folks: 

Despite the overwhelmingly positive studies done in Europe, American researchers still refused to perform controlled studies. In fact, literature searches show that there are hardly any North American studies done on these products. But all this is quickly changing. Because of the huge number of humans and pets suffering from osteoarthritis and the tremendous success in the treatment of this disease when using glucosamine and chondroitin, many companies are now producing a product line and several broad research studies are underway.

So there's peer reviewed studies on the horizon.

The value of fish oil, on the other hand, is extremely well documented.  I can give you several studies to check out, from its value for skin inflammation, to IBD, to inflammatory joint diseases.  Not to mention its ability to lower LDL in humans, improve heart function, and on and on.

I'm not a bandwagon jumper - but there's some wagons I feel are worthwhile.  For instance, for Lulu I put together a regime which includes good fresh foods, fish oil, and herbs and nutraceuticals known for their anti-inflammatory or cartilage supporting properties.  I chose my "weapons" carefully to balance my budget, convenience, what she'd accept (she disliked pills), and the particular nature of her joint disease.  Sabine at Better Dog Care helped me tweak it even more, in favor of economizing and further decreasing her exposure to inflammatory agents.

I feel there's nothing too crazy in seeing Lu, who could only trot for a few steps when we first started treating her, racing her working partner Minnie at top speed across the field to get her dinner - and I can't tell at first which is Lu and which is three year old Minnie.

So it's difficult for me to equate what are to me proven nutraceuticals, and the shades of humbug that surround the premium/holistic food industry.  As someone else said, most buyers of those foods are looking at the first few ingredients, and the nutritional analysis. 

brookcove

For instance, for Lulu I put together a regime which includes good fresh foods, fish oil, and herbs and nutraceuticals known for their anti-inflammatory or cartilage supporting properties.

Its hard to not be a "believer" when you find good results.

Extracts and natural cures might be the best thing but not a lot of vets or doctors are going to prescribe them....and while there is a lot of research going on about them...not all are done by what some consider creditable.  And then there is getting and paying for some of these things.  I will never forget watching a cable tv show one day a few years back... people were calling in questions to FDA.  One was a lady who has a child that needs to be on medication for ADHD..and was using one of the natural recommended supplements and of course it wasn't covered by her health care, but yet Ritalin was suggested and covered and it did terrible things to her child and he could not take it.  This is another topic of conversation.... but yet I think that when someone like GDL suggests some of these things its from her experience with them and it could be very helpful and perhaps worth a thought.