Sign Up
Search

GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS

Home » Nutrition & Exercise » GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS
New Topic
  • sandra_slayton
    • Gold Top Dog

    GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS

    sandra_slayton

    Posted : 1/8/2009 7:22:08 PM

    Great Dane Lady... new article on grains
     THE FOLLOWING WAS POSTED ON ONE OF MY GOLDEN RETRIEVER FORUMS.  I COULD NOT FIND IT POSTED HERE ANYWHERE, SO AM POSTING IT FOR ANY INTERESTED.
    ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************
     
     
    I found this very informative. It's a new article on her site re: grains / grain free food.

    Quote:
    Things to Ponder About Grain Free Diets
    I get many emails asking my opinion of the new grain-free diets on the market. These are new foods and actually a spin-off of the BARF- biologically appropriate raw foods movement.

    The growing holistic pet food industry has much competition these days, so they are looking for ways to reinvent the wheel and here you have it, the new grain free diets!

    After all, if the public wants grain free diets, certainly they know what is best for their pets - right? Wrong -- just because the public wants it, is not a good enough reason to manufacture it. Just because it is a grain free diet, does not mean it is appropriate for your dog's situation.

    Thanks to knee-jerk reactions and the propagation of nutritional myths on the internet, grains in petfoods have a bad reputation. Grains are carbohydrates and carbohydrates are not necessarily bad. Just because it is a grain free diet does not mean there are no carbohydrates in the grain free food. Instead they substitute potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams and tapioca, as other carb sources yet tapioca is a questionable ingredient for pets. More feed trials are needed on these foods.

    So when people think they are using a grain-free diet, it still has carbohydrates in it and in many cases potato carbohydrates are worse for allergies, systemic yeast infections, diabetic and cancer diets - worse than quality whole ground grains used in the proper proportion.

    My point here is this, like most things in life, this grainless diet topic is not a black/white issue. There are many things we need to consider before using a grain free diet for our pet's current health situation. Now the good thing about the grain free diets is that they are generally made by very good holistic companies like Nutura's EVO, Wellness-Core. Wysong's Archetype, Dr Harvey's Veg-To-Bowl among others. Here is a list in my Raw Diet Options.
    Most grain free diets have not been around long enough to see how they will do in 3-4 generations. And feed trials, if actually done, are very limited. That is, other than Dr. Wysong's diets because he is a pioneer in the field of nutrition and his products have longevity and feed trial research done on them. He is one of my heroes and I appreciate all he has done to educating us about pet and human nutrition. (wysong.net).

    I do not recommend grain free diets for growth in any breed and especially for large and giant breeds. Actually, I do not recommend a grain free diet be fed as the "total diet" to any healthy breed. I even have reservations about them used totally as a cancer diet due to the high calcium levels. They are really meant for very specific uses and often for short term use - each animal's situation would have to be throught through before I could ever recommend a total grainless diet to my puppy buyers.
    I think grainless food is fine to use as a 5%-10% component to the adult diet using a super premium or holsitic food as the 90-95% basis of your program. For puppies I would only use a spoonful mixed with a high quality kibble such as the Wellpet line (Eagle and Wellness foods).
    Once the puppy is past the growth stages then it is ok to increase the amount fed of a grainless diet. This is why I like the Honest Kitchen products so much, they are easier to regulate feeding, you can sprinkle a little on the puppies food and add a little water and stir - voila - you have the best of both worlds. A quality kibble with optimal nutrients, the raw component and fruits and veggies. What more could you ask in this busy world - ease and not compromising your pet's health.
    It is very hard to regulate growth patterns on raw or grain fee diets in order to avoid developmental orthopedic diseases such as; HOD, Knuckling Over/Bowing (Carpel Flexural Deformity) OCD, and Pano.
    What The Great Dane Lady Uses:
    I do have a raw component to all of my programs and that is accomplished through the use of The Honest Kitchen dehydrated raw/fruit/veggie mix, I recommend top dressing my Eagle Super Premium or Holistic Eagle line or Wellness Super Mix line.

    I would also approve of a 10% component of Wellness Core along with the Wellness Super Mix line for adult dogs. For puppies only a small spoonful is needed until they are through the difficult growth stages past 8 months.


    Blackwatch Puppy Feed Program for Large/Giant breeds
    Wellness Dog Food Company States It Best:

    DID YOU KNOW?
    The majority of the grain-free diets available today contain extreme, super-concentrated nutrient levels far beyond that of everyday super-premium dog food:
    • 75% more protein
    • 87% more calcium
    • 57% more fat
    • 53% more phosphorus (editorial comment - this means more ash)
    • 16% more calories
    *ALL percentages calculated on a dry matter basis
    These nutrient levels (calories, fat, protein) have been historically recommended only during sustained levels of high stress, high energy and peak nutritional demand including:

    • Hunting, racing, showing, competition
    • Accelerated recovery from surgery or illness
    • Breeding, lactation and weaning
    The high levels of Calcium and Phosphorus are generally not recommended for any special condition or circumstance.

    editorial comment: Keep in mind that Wellness Core is actually one of the more moderate grainless diets on the market and even they know to make this info clear to the public.
    So Are Grains Good or Bad?
    There is some notion out there in cyberspace that grains are bad, when in fact grains are only bad when they were used as the basis for commercial foods, in other words grain is listed first on the label --- now that's bad. In super premium and holistic lines, grains are used as carbohydrate components, not as protein and not as filler, and that is good thing. Plus the quality of grains use in holistic and super premium lines is grade#1 Human Grade or Organic. This means low gluten components in the grains.

    Grains are bad when they are:

    1) fractionated (not ground whole)
    2) when they are not human grade or organic
    3) when they are the basis for commercial dog foods (grain listed first instead of meat protein based).
    The biggest grain bashing problem was started by a west coast dog food company years ago, and it had to do with corn and allergies. The fact is Human Grade #1 corn is one of the best natural sources of coat and skin conditioners like Omega 6, and it is low in gluten. It has an overall digestibility is 90% and carbohydrate digestibility is 99%.
    Here is more information on the Corn Myth as it relates to allergies.
    RESEARCH

    In 2005 one of the most respected holistic dog food companies decided to pull the corn from their foods only because they had pressure from consumers to do so. This decision to remove the corn was not based in any kind of research, but just because they bowed to public pressure. They removed the corn and now had a "grain-less" holistic food which is what the public clammored for in a pet food.

    After test feeding the diet over a long period of time they witnessed several changes in the dogs energy levels, coat and body weight. All were negative effects. The dogs had significant weight loss, it took much more food to maintain the dogs weight, coats became brittle and the dog's energy levels plummeted, real working dogs were lacked endurance. After seeing this results over many months of feed trial research, the decided to put the Grade 1# whole corn back into their holistic diet - as a carbohydrate source, and after thousands of bags were sold not one allergy was reported.
    I have found in dealing with dogs that are diabetic or have cancer, that when we totally remove the grain from the diet, their energy level plummets. So using a very high quality, high protein/fat diet with some component of whole grain is actual a good thing. Remember if it is ground whole, that means the fiber is intact - if there is natural fiber present, then the grain does not convert to sugar in a flash, it burns slow and steady and sustains energy levels and appetites.
    Dr. Harvey addresses this issue in his article: Grain to Provide Storage Glycogen

    As Dr. Harvey states "Every athlete knows that taking in pasta or grain loading prior to an athletic event, provides the necessary storage glycogen for the athlete to have sufficient glucose for muscle performance for the duration activity. This glucose is necessary for all muscle function."

    He goes on to talk about the value of whole grains, precooked and/or freeze dried grains in a diet. The key is the diet should NOT be grain based, but instead should be based in protein from quality meat sources.

    Dr. Harvey says "Some dogs do well on a completely grain-free diet, and for them I made Veg-to-Bowl , a grain-free mix of wonderful dehydrated and freeze-dried veggies. This mixture blended with meat and oils makes a wonderful grain-free meal. "

    He then expresses the same opinion that I have in that "some dogs do better with grains, in fact, in my experience; many, many dogs improve dramatically when using our Canine Health (which has a whole grain component) with raw or cooked meat".

    Dr. Harvey's company is not the only company to have found this out in feed trials. PHD - Perfect Healthy Diet has also put whole grain back into the dry food because the dogs in feed trials did not maintain stamina when working, and lost weight quickly, having difficulty in maintaining their ideal weight.

    GRADE QUALITY and AMOUNT and KIND of grain is the key - remember whole intact grains have all the fiber in tact, so it is not a fast sugar burn as is refined carbohydrates.

    Dr. Harvey goes on to point out, "Nature made all muscle and brain function (99%) using glucose and oxygen. Carbohydrates, such as grains, are stored in the liver as glycogen, this is then released as glucose in the blood as the body requires it".

    He goes on to say "I see that dogs do incredibly well and thrive on 6-10% grain in their diet. Dogs are able to utilize the glucose from grains, as athletes do when they are performing"

    Dr. Harvey has developed two organic pre-mixes Canine Health, Feline Health and Veg-to-Bowl,(no grain) to offer the easiest, safest and most convenient way to feed a complete raw diet. Just add water, meat and oil to either of our pre-mixes and you have a complete raw meal for your dog or cat. He also has available Power Patties - Freeze Dried Tripe. For more information on this diet go to: http://www.drharveys.com/


    Dr. Lisa Neuman has a very good article on feeding raw/fruit/veggie - grainless diets.
    You need to read about this research if you are going to choose going straight grain-free diets.
    http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm
    Lastly, here is some information about grains as they relate to the diabetic dog. This is taken from the Feed Program for Diabetes.
    THE GRAIN CONTROVERSY
    The issue of grain consumption in pet foods has more to do with the QUALITY and QUANTITY used in a food. For example, the use of corn in a food has gotten much bad press for being an allergen, when in fact it is the "feed grade" corn that is the problem and comparing it to human grade #1 corn; it is nutritionally as different as night and day. (The Corn Myth).
    I am certainly not promoting any grain or corn based food as being the best choice in a diet, but a holistic dog food (not cat) with a human grade, whole grain #1 corn component in it, provides energy levels unmatched by any other grain or protein source and needed for real performance animals. Not all grains are bad, and likewise a grain free diet is NOT necessarily the best way to feed a pet either.
    Grain-based dog foods (grain is listed first on the bag) are difficult for the dog to digest and some say that dogs do not make the amylase enzyme needed to break down carbohydrates, but that is not true. What is true, is - because dogs do not get a raw component to their diets or do not get dietary enzyme supplementation, they are unable to make adequate amounts of all digestive enzymes for proper digestion!!

    If there is no raw component, dietary enzymes supplementation or digestive enzyme supplementation provided to the dog's diet, the body can not make/produce the enzymes necessary to break down and digest the carbohydrates, protein, fats and fiber in a diet.
    Dogs and cats have trouble making enough digestive enzymes - all 4 types of digestive enzymes, when they do not have the adequate nutrients supplied in the daily diet, in some form of a "raw, unprocessed, living component".
    When there is no raw present, there are no dietary enzymes present and therefore total enzymatic activity that breaks down the food depends wholly on the pancreas to make these enzymes. That is a tremendous burden on the pancreas when it is "born" with a limited number to begin with. Think of the pancreas as a checking account with a set amount of money in it. When it is spent, it is spent - and when it is spent, that is when you develop diabetes.
    In the Diabetic Support Kit #22 , I have combined supplements that have been shown in the most recent research to be beneficial in establishing less spiking in glucose levels and more consistency in the dog's diabetic condition. There have been some pets that have had reversing of the disease after a time on the program, and on a quality holistic meat based food, but it is important to make sure a diabetic pet remains on the contents of the kit for life.
    The most success I have seen is in cats, where grain-free raw diets are the most successful when it comes to reversing disease.
    __________________
  • Luvntzus
    • Gold Top Dog
    Luvntzus

    Posted : 1/8/2009 7:36:39 PM

    That's a great article! One of the points she made is something that I've brought up before, that grain free kibble just substitutes a different type of carbohydrate. And I've felt very wary of the high protein and fat levels also. I'm fine with ones like Wellness CORE, but even then I don't think it's necessarily better than foods with grains. I'm going to re-read the article and save it also.
  • jessies_mom
    • Gold Top Dog
    jessies_mom

    Posted : 1/8/2009 8:04:47 PM

     I've personally never had anything against using grains as part of a dog's diet; in fact, Jessie is allergic to white and sweet potatoes so I can't feed her any of the grain free diets.

    sandra_slayton
    I do not recommend grain free diets for growth in any breed and especially for large and giant breeds. Actually, I do not recommend a grain free diet be fed as the "total diet" to any healthy breed. I even have reservations about them used totally as a cancer diet due to the high calcium levels. They are really meant for very specific uses and often for short term use - each animal's situation would have to be throught through before I could ever recommend a total grainless diet to my puppy buyers.
    I think grainless food is fine to use as a 5%-10% component to the adult diet using a super premium or holsitic food as the 90-95% basis of your program. For puppies I would only use a spoonful mixed with a high quality kibble such as the Wellpet line (Eagle and Wellness foods).

      I'd like to see someone with an extensive knowledge of animal nutrition comment on this. Linda Arndt is not a nutritionist and you need to take what she says with a grain of salt.

  • papillon806
    • Gold Top Dog
    papillon806

    Posted : 1/8/2009 10:51:23 PM

    If there is no raw component, dietary enzymes supplementation or digestive enzyme supplementation provided to the dog's diet, the body can not make/produce the enzymes necessary to break down and digest the carbohydrates, protein, fats and fiber in a diet.
    Dogs and cats have trouble making enough digestive enzymes - all 4 types of digestive enzymes, when they do not have the adequate nutrients supplied in the daily diet, in some form of a "raw, unprocessed, living component".
    When there is no raw present, there are no dietary enzymes present and therefore total enzymatic activity that breaks down the food depends wholly on the pancreas to make these enzymes. That is a tremendous burden on the pancreas when it is "born" with a limited number to begin with. Think of the pancreas as a checking account with a set amount of money in it. When it is spent, it is spent - and when it is spent, that is when you develop diabetes.

     

    Ok...I'm not quite sure where to even begin here.  I suppose I need to stop laughing first...

    I don't even think there is one true statement in this entire excerpt.  First of all she keeps saying "digestive enzymes" as a general statement and then trying to say that the pancreas is responsible for producing all of these (and by "these" I have no idea what she means since she didn't mention any specific enzyme...lol).   YES, the pancreas produces many enzymes (more than "4";) responsible for digestion in the small intestine, but an animal produces them their entire life via positive and negative feedback mechanisms.  The last sentence is what put me on the floor laughing; "When it's spent, that is when you develop diabetes."  I see what she is sadly attempting to describe (aka type 1 diabetes when your body's immune system destroys insulin producing cells), but that is due to an autoimmune genetic problem...not "running out" of those cells [let me just mention that she keeps saying they "run out of an enzyme and get diabetes" here but INSULIN IS A HORMONE, NOT AN ENZYME].  Type 2 diabetes would be more relevant to her argument because it involves insulin resistance---it has been show that high carbohydrate/gluten diets in cats (we're talking OBLIGATE carnivores here) causes such a high insulin spike after eating that eventually the body gets "tired" of producing it (for lack of a better description) so it becomes less and less sensitive to glucose over time.  Anyways...my point is that whole thing is a load of hog-wash.  I have to admit that after reading this I have lost all respect for her...mainly because she actually wrote this without knowing what she is talking about, thus spreading more false information over the internet.

     
    Regarding the grain issue--

    It's as simple as this---carbohydrate=carbohydrate whether it's from a grain or a potato.  Dogs need the type of energy produced from a carbohydrate source.  High energy/working dogs usually need a more "slow release" kind found in grains, whereas the average dog would probably do much better on an easier, more digestible type like potatoes or rice.  And as always---EVERY dog is DIFFERENT.  Feed your dog based on what you have found works best.  End of story.

     

     
    *steps off of soap-box*

     
  • stanton
    • Gold Top Dog
    stanton

    Posted : 1/9/2009 1:53:21 AM

    I'm totally on the fence with grains.

    I have 2 dogs that have done wonderful without grains in their diets. One dog that does seem to have the need for grains, of which I typically use long grain brown rice, millet or Quinoa.

    If Rivers gets 3-4 meals a week with *some* grain in it, he has great energy for longer duration. If I go for a week without feeding him grains, only giving him the HK veggie pre-mix, he does seem to lose some of his stamina.

    I'm not against grains entirely, I am against the fragmented and/or foods just flat containing WAY too many.

    So...is her letter stating that we are actually doing harm to our dogs by feeding them the grain-free diets?

  • Myra
    • Bronze
    Myra

    Posted : 1/9/2009 6:55:57 AM

    I've never bought into the grain-free bandwagon.  I've seen too many dogs whose condition has declined markedly when grains are removed from their diets.  Although I certainly believe there are some dogs who do best on a grain-free diet.  But it's not something I will ever automatically advocate across-the-board for all dogs.  Grains are NOT evil.
  • stanton
    • Gold Top Dog
    stanton

    Posted : 1/9/2009 9:24:51 AM

    I'd don't believe they're evil either...HOWEVER, there are a ton of dog foods overloaded drastically by grains, and THAT is what's bad, and so many people don't know where to draw the line with the labels.

  • mudpuppy
    • Gold Top Dog
    mudpuppy

    Posted : 1/9/2009 9:47:57 AM

    I agree- grains aren't bad, but most commercial kibbles are well, almost entirely grain. Big bag of corn with a little meat flavor and some vitamins? that's not an appropriate diet for a dog. A lot of the grain-free foods that have come on the market recently are just as inappropriate- big bag of potatoes with a little meat added.

    Many people have been feeding low-carb diets (raw) to dogs for years/generations of dogs and they, in general, thrive on it.

  • jenns
    • Gold Top Dog
    jenns

    Posted : 1/9/2009 9:55:44 AM

    Sounds to me like she is saying that grains are necessary in a dog's diet.  That would refute the whole premise of raw feeding.
  • jessies_mom
    • Gold Top Dog
    jessies_mom

    Posted : 1/9/2009 3:15:29 PM

    mudpuppy

     

    Many people have been feeding low-carb diets (raw) to dogs for years/generations of dogs and they, in general, thrive on it.

     

      Jessie's getting a cooked diet which includes some rice, but the diet is only about 17% carbs, and she's doing great. Her diet is also 23% fat; I think there should be more fat than carbs in a dog's diet.

  • dyan
    • Gold Top Dog
    dyan

    Posted : 1/9/2009 3:48:44 PM

    Gee...I haven't had time to read any of the new articles that GDL put on her website.  Thanks for sharing.

    Nothing about it I don't believe either.   I also have not "bought into" the grain free crap.  I DO believe the cheap kibble thats first several ingredients are grains are garbage....but thats about it.     If I were home cooking or feeding raw I would be adding some grains.

    But no doubt there will be a ton of people telling you about the dogs in the wild that eat no grains....
  • sandra_slayton
    • Gold Top Dog
    sandra_slayton

    Posted : 1/9/2009 6:10:56 PM

    You know wht?  I  fed Puria aillion years,asdid my da.  we a heah dos wth beutiful coats, good health.  I was told over and here (here) how horrible it was, how my dogs could not have beautiful coats---even tho i posted pictures.  i was told grain is not meant for dogs, etc, etc.

     

    I hadtried Buck on a "better food" and he could nothandle it, so back to Purina for him and in his lie time, his only llness was a kidney infection a abou 10 1/2.  i lost him to heart attack at 12 rs. 3 months--life expectancy for goldens are10 to 12 years.  here lately a number of 7 and 8 year old goldens, and some younger, have been diagnosed with cancer on my golden forums.  is heart breaking.

     i had switched KayCee to taste of the Wild grainless food.  lost her to cancer at 8 yrs. 9 months. bac in may.  honey, age 7 is on it.  Neither KayCee nor Honey showed any difference in coats, teeth, etc afte being switched to the betyer food.  i am thinking of going back to the Purina for Honey. her coat was like velvet then,  she did not have any scent about her at all.  i agree that grains do not hut a dog at all.

    and i also think you should giveyour dog what he does best on ==grainless, low grain, half grain, total grain if that is what works. 
  • papillon806
    • Gold Top Dog
    papillon806

    Posted : 1/9/2009 7:41:50 PM

    Is nobody else disturbed/surprised at her lack of knowledge (and yet confidence when stating it) regarding diabetes and "digestive enzymes?"  lol
  • grab01
    • Gold Top Dog
    grab01

    Posted : 1/9/2009 8:27:33 PM

    I do find it amusing. It kind of reminds me of an incident today where someone from a different clinic came in and said proudly, and with certainty, that one of their techs was the best at getting urine from the kidneys during a cysto....Huh? Ahh...no.

     I've never really read any of her articles, though. So I've no idea what credentials she's supposed to have...a doctor vs crazy aunt edna, for exampleStick out tongue
  • jdata
    • Gold Top Dog
    jdata

    Posted : 1/9/2009 8:33:09 PM

    What are her credentials? Seriously. You see vets go into contradiction with one another... grain yes, grain no. I have had Vets tell me no to RAW and some yes to raw. Give me a break. Now you have a well-formed article however with errors that others have cited yet people constantly jump on the bandwagon. this is all wishy wash. GDL credibility is shot IMHO.

    If your dog does fine on a particular food, then you should NOT be concerned what people think. Its YOUR DOG and YOUR MONEY. The insecurity thinking is getting way out of control.

    As for me, I feed RAW. Once they stopped eating grain/carb food, they trimmed down and toned very well. Their teeth and health have been at their best. The vets are shocked to see their coats, muscle tone (big muscles for Jacks), very bright eyes, clean and white teeth. With Kibble, there was always build up on their teeth. I don't have to brush as much with raw thanks to the bone. I am happy on raw and grain free thank you very much.