GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS

I've never completely bought into any of the hoopla regarding certain types of *diets*; i..e raw, grain-free, diet w/ grains, etc. I've always just fed high protein diets with meat as the first 2-3 ingredients, if they were followed by brown rice, or whole grain rice, and/or oatmeal, then they were fine by me.

My biggest no-no's in regards to certain foods were always the typical grocery brands, I've never had a dog do good on any of them in years past, i.e. 80's or so. I've never cared for a food with several grains that over-ride the meat content, and/or foods with grain fragments, nor have I ever fed a food with ingredients just flat not suitable, i.e. soybean hulls, corn gluten meal, etc.

My biggest beef though, I refuse to feed a food that contains any kind of fish that the company can not guarantee ethoxiquin free..that is a BIG one for me, cause this chemical can and does cause cancer.

I've had several dogs far out live their typical life expectancy for their breed just by feeding at least half homecooked and 25-50% good quality foods; i.e Avoderm, Cal Natural, Innova, Healthwise, Nature's Recipe (at the time in early 90's, it was fairly decent).

Avoderm and Nature's Recipe are not top of the line, but probably were in the late 80's early 90's, these 2 foods are what I fed my late Malamute who lived far surpass her typical breed life expectancy. She lived to be 16yrs old....BUT, I did feed her a LOT of homecooked foods and in fact, her last 3yrs were totally homecooked. Yes, that did include grains, but not a ton.

The 3 dogs I have now are far on their way *hopefully* to living good long lives, I can only hope. My 2 small ones were raised on Cal natural puppy, Innova, EVO along with at minimum 30% homecooked, one is 4, the other is 9...both are in perfect health. But I have seen a giant difference in switching to homecooked entirely with them.

My 20mnth old Nova Scotia has only known Innova, Orijen, and now completely homecooked. That's all he'll ever get. I won't go back to dry/can/premade raw foods period...cause *I* don't know what's in them.

I firmly believe that over-vaccinating an animal has a LOT to do with overall health as well. Keep that in mind, cause it's a BIG issue.

jdata

What are her credentials?

 Well, she knows a lot about ceramics; http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_art_work_of_linda_arndt.htm;

Biography - Linda Arndt, Professor Emeritus

June of 2006, Linda retired after 34 years at Ball State University to continue her art work and her consulting business. She established Blackwatch Nutritional Consulting LLC to work with holistic dog food, supplement companies and pet owners to design supplements and food programs that promote wellness and longevity for companion animals.

Education: BFA is from San Francisco Art Institute, MFA from Cranbrook Academy of Art, Bloomfield Michigan. Linda has an extensive exhibition record, and respected internationally with over 68 Solo Exhibitions, 803 International, National, Juried and Invitational Exhibits and over 450 Regional State and Local Juried and Invitational Exhibitions.

In 2001 she had a Retrospective exhibition at the Minnetrista Cultural Center which represented many years in clay including 80 works from various public and private collections.Her Ceramic work is represented in Corporate, Public and Private collections including Cranbrook Museum of Art, San Francisco Museum of Art the Shaw and Pffenbacher Contemporary Clay Collections, and numerous University, Museum and overseas Collections.

You will find her work well represented in various ceramic publications such as Ceramic Art and Perception and numerous Craft periodicals and Design textbooks. He work is internationally known and respected.

Linda is the recipient of the first Ball State Outstanding Creative Endeavor Award,
has been featured on the cover of Arts Indiana as well as has served on the Indiana Arts Commission several times. She has lectured nationally and overseas and been the recipient of numerous Creative Arts Grants.

  She's a self described canine nutritional consultant but there's nothing on her site about taking animal nutrition courses. The article that really bothers me and is responsible for a popular internet myth is the one about systemic yeast infections and her "yeast removal kit" ; http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/feed_program_for_systemic_yeast_problems.htm

 According to my vet, systemic yeast infections are very rare.

I try to stay away from any type of extreme unless necessary.  I don't think we (meaning Willow and myself) need tons of grains but some are OK.  I don't think carbs are bad but we don't need too many.  I think a balance is healthy. 

i agree with the over vaccination causing so many health problems, and so does my vet.  he thinks that is in part the reason he is seeing more cancer, more auto mmune diseases now than he did in th past--he has been in prctice for 20 years. when my Hunter was diagnosed with auto immune hemolytic anemia 5 years this past Oct. he was seing one case every year to year and half.  Now he ees several a year.  He has gone to the 3 year vax schedule, and only gives lepto, lymes at the request of owners--no reported cases of Lyimes down here, only one case of lepto.

Our state la ievery 3 years for rabies, but lets each couty and each city/towb decid for themselves.  City over rides county, contry over rides state. Both or county n u tonsa evey yer  whe myolden erir Kayehdasr reacin ohe e etof nnuals 7 years ago he put her on every 3 year abi vax and said if anyone gave me rouble have them contaqct him. and his pastear heput my goldfen retriever mix, Honey on 3year eve thos she has no health problem at all-----he knows how I  fear AIHA and cancer and is doingthis fo me.

Sixty prcent of all goldens die of cancer.  tyhat is so frightning to me.  I lost Kayee to it this pst May 25.  we have dogs as young as a ear old be diagos with it on the golden forums.   I went grain free for ine hoping to avoid cancer.  It did o good for my KayCee, dead at 8 yrs. 9 monts 1 week from caner.

I'm a big believer in feeding what works. I have dogs who do best on grain free (Jules has maintained a good weight on this food, which is a huge issue for him..he's a skinny guy. His skin and coat are lovely and his yorkie eye goobs went away) Ginger eats a grain free canned. She has allergies and does best on this food.  Aesop does best with some grains, so he eats half and half of the grain free and a food with grains. Half and half only because that's the way he likes it..feed him one or the other and he eats ever so slowly and sadly. I'd swear you could hear him sigh He looks great on this mixture, so we stay with it.

I feed what works for my dogs.

I also think that, for humans OR pets, a good diet (whatever one you choose) is a cumulative thing.  If I drink, smoke or eat nothing but fried foods for a good portion of my years,  I can't expect a diet change later on to perform miracles on what I've already done to my organs.

sandra_slayton

i agree with the over vaccination causing so many health problems, and so does my vet. 

  I agree too; Jessie is due for her 3 year rabies this month. Of course she'll get it but I'm going to discuss with my vet the option of only giving it and nothing else. She's 10 and should have plenty of antibodies for distemper, ect.

 I want to be fair to Linda Arndt;

http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/EP_PetHealth.html#lgnt;

In 1990 we were presented with the statistical results of a national survey conducted among owners of 3,000 large and giant breed dogs.  The survey focused on three bone growth problems; HOD, OCD, and Pano, and was conducted by professor/breeder and canine consultant Linda Arndt of Blackwatch Kennels.  Armed with this data, results of feeding trials and the knowledge that a leading text, "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition III", lists these three problems under nutritional issues, and not under genetic diseases, we set out to develop the first formula specifically for large and giant breed puppies and adult dogs.

  Eagle Pack was one of the companies she contacted and they were the only one interested in developing a formula that has helped so many large breed puppies. She definitely deserves credit for that.

Sandra -  how long had Kaycee eatin grain free foods? I'm very sorry to hear about your losses, I've followed your posts for a long time and cried through Hunter's condition. You were the reason I backed out of our appt for the heartworm vaccine....I'm so glad I never gave it.

I don't think it's the *grain-free* idea, honestly that keeps dogs healthy, I think it's the overall quality of ingredients in their diet...period. A dog food company can list grain-free ingredients on a bag of food, but unless they are GOOD to excellent quality sources, it's to really no benefit versus a food that may have more grain but excellent sources.

My dogs get no vaccines period past their first annual adult vaccines. The one exception is Rabies every 3yrs and that's it. My 9yr old Chihuahua hasn't been vaccinated in 8yrs, he's very healthy and goes everywhere, exposed to a lot of other dogs, and he's never been sick.

My relatives have had their share of Golden's, one has died from cancer, one from a heart condition, but she lived 90% of her life on steriods from allergies and bad diets overall for both. Both were also very overweight and over vaccinated, but they did have beautiful coats. One ate Science diet, along with other store bought foods, the other ate Eukanuba along with Science diet, Purina, and pedigree, I believe.

That same Aunt now has 2 younger Goldens, a 2 & 3yr old, these two are both already overweight and over vaccinated in their young lives, BUT they are eating a much better diet...Canidae ALS grain-free version. I've been working with this aunt for years in getting her dogs on a better track, she's done better with these 2, but I'm trying to convince her that she's over feeding and over-vaccinating. Hopefully these 2 won't have the same fate as her last 2.

Again, I'm very sorry about your Hunter and Kaycee.

The breed risk was my biggest fear when adopting Rivers, as he is from the retriever family....but, all I can do is my best by doing homecooked diets, titers instead of vaccines, and keeping him slightly underweight.

jessies_mom

I'd like to see someone with an extensive knowledge of animal nutrition comment on this. Linda Arndt is not a nutritionist and you need to take what she says with a grain of salt.

Yes...Linda writes from her long experience and interest and study in nutrition and health of first, the giant breeds of dogs...and eventually all breeds and also humans.

She is not a nutritionist.

Jana, I was pretty shocked to read that and frankly my head was swimming by the end.  I'm not confident enough in my grasp of metabolic processes to recognise the glaring errors so thank you Jana for clarifying those.   Even I could tell, however, that the article in general seemed uneven and in need of some moderation of the liberal sprinkling of absolutes declaimed therein.

Oddly, I agree with much that is said here - but there's a lot that's just off base too.  I don't agree that dogs need carbs, for instance.  Protein and fat are far better sources of energy in most cases, whenever possible. 

The problem that arises for many dogs is that their nutritional needs are met by far less meat and fat, than their energy needs require.  A 100 pound dog, for instance, could, let's say, get everything he needs from one pound of animal products, but depending on what's in the pound of meat, it might only provide 25% or even less the calories needed. 

Enter the infamous "empty carbs."  They keep dogs that are unnaturally balanced by man's breeding, from having to choose between starving to death or succumbing to problems caused by overdose or imbalanced nutrients.

So yes, she's right in one way in saying that every bite a dog takes doesn't have to be nutrient packed and grains are an okay source of energy for dogs taht tolerate them.  I gather from the article though that there's never a place for a grain free diet and that couldn't be further from the truth.  I had a dog who couldn't tolerate anything but animal sourced nutriton.  I have a dog who this year went from doing fine on grain, to needing that little extra something that grain free offers - for dental health, digestibility, lower omega 6s.  Zhi's been grain free her whole life and has never had the issues I hear from other hairless owners - she has perfect teeth and perfect skin - hair not so great but there's a point where diet can't overcome genetics.

Sorry Dyan.  I'm looking for a retraction or big time correction to this before I could recommend GDL as a resource again. 

brookcove

Sorry Dyan.  I'm looking for a retraction or big time correction to this before I could recommend GDL as a resource again. 

I have been using the Great Dane Ladys information for many years in my decision on several things for our Danes here.  She has helped us in so many ways with Ollie to begin with.   I do believe in what she says.

But I think we have to keep in mind a few things. Her website is her opinion...after years of raising dogs, food trials and studying nutrition especially in the GD. The biggest thing ( to me ) is how she started off by saying the grainless diet topic is not a black/white issue. In other words..it may or may not be the best.   Not, "it is not good."  To me...that means "each case is different," and such is the case of the dogs you use for example.  I believe that when I first started reading Lindas website...she was not in favor of raw feeding....and now she has added some space in her articles for it.  That tells me she is open to change when more data is in on the subject....but for now she sticks with what she knows to be true. 

1. She says: My point here is this, like most things in life, this grainless diet topic is not a black/white issue. There are many things we need to consider before using a grain free diet for our pet's current health situation.

2. Most grain free diets have not been around long enough to see how they will do in 3-4 generations.

3. I do not recommend grain free diets for growth in any breed and especially for large and giant breeds. Actually, I do not recommend a grain free diet be fed as the "total diet" to any healthy breed. I even have reservations about them used totally as a cancer diet due to the high calcium levels. They are really meant for very specific uses and often for short term use - each animal's situation would have to be throught through before I could ever recommend a total grainless diet to my puppy buyers.

And she gives us reasons for what she writes such as: This particular article I believe was about corn. ( often another sore subject  )

In 2005 one of the most respected holistic dog food companies decided to pull the corn from their foods only because they had pressure from consumers to do so. This decision to remove the corn was not based in any kind of research, but just because they bowed to public pressure. They removed the corn and now had a "grain-less" holistic food which is what the public clammored for in a pet food.

After test feeding the diet over a long period of time they witnessed several changes in the dogs energy levels, coat and body weight. All were negative effects. The dogs had significant weight loss, it took much more food to maintain the dogs weight, coats became brittle and the dog's energy levels plummeted, real working dogs were lacked endurance. After seeing this results over many months of feed trial research, the decided to put the Grade 1# whole corn back into their holistic diet - as a carbohydrate source, and after thousands of bags were sold not one allergy was reported.

I have found in dealing with dogs that are diabetic or have cancer, that when we totally remove the grain from the diet, their energy level plummets. So using a very high quality, high protein/fat diet with some component of whole grain is actual a good thing. Remember if it is ground whole, that means the fiber is intact - if there is natural fiber present, then the grain does not convert to sugar in a flash, it burns slow and steady and sustains energy levels and appetites.

So again...these are her opinions and why. She doesn't make them up...she gives us examples in most cases.  I have to like that.

I'm wondering in this conversation are we mixing a few things up?  Such as cheap kibble that is grain based?  Premium kibble that has grains in it?  comercial dog food in general?  Raw?  Homecooked?

Personally when I tried to feed Gibson with no grains in home cooked....I saw him loose weight and it scared me.  I would LOVE to get him off kibble, dog food in general.  I would love to get him on all home cooked, and I intend to try again. However...I personally would not try to do it without grains. The grains that I eat...will be given to my dog too.

So that takes us again to doing what is best for your dog in particular.

dyan

But no doubt there will be a ton of people telling you about the dogs in the wild that eat no grains

In the wild, cainds have been observed eating vegetable and plant matter, such as foraging berries right off of the bush, as well as eating the stomach contents of an ungulate.

And I've said it before and I will say it again because I am stubborn enough to give mules lessons in how to be stubborn, but Shadow eats plant matter of his own accord. In addition to his regular food. I have watched him do it countless times. He is a particular type of canid. Canis familiaris. Domesticated dog, not wolf, not coyote, not jackal, not dingo, no NGSD. And I have watched him eat grass roots and plant leaves and pecans. With the latter, he cracks the shell and gets the actual nut out of the shell and eats that. And it doesn't matter if that is not the densest source of protein or if some think he has the teeth of a carnivore. He eats it, even if it's just to "aid digestion." That is, even if he doesn't absorb 100 %, which is actually unhealthy, it does move along the digestion. You have to be able to eliminate some. A regulated GI gets rid of toxins.

Now, grains in a kibble are in a finer and more broken down form, which actually aids in the digestion of nutrients from those components. So, I won't worry if he's eating ground rice or oatmeal in a kibble when I see him every day, nearly, chewing on grass roots, which aren't as broken down.

Dogs are scavengers as well as hunters. This is what made it profitable for them to hang around humans, who threw out cast-offs from meals, including, no doubt, cooked bones, left-over stew with veggies, unwanted rice, old bread. Or the dogs ate the rats that were attracted to human trash.

So, I think it's no wonder that some dogs can do great on grains, others on veggies, others on not much of either.

When I think of wild dog diet, I don't think of an idealized scenario of a dog bring down small animals and eating only that. I think of this stray, almost feral female Lab that is running around the jobsite at work. Some have seen her eating cotton rats. I have left out Jade's old cat food. And a piece of the pig I smoked (just the meat.) A piece of bread I left out. The food scraps that the other workers just toss on the ground whereever they sit or stand. I haven't been able to get closer than 50 feet to her. Right now, she's smart enough to stay away from traffic and the town has no AC. About the only way you would be able to catch her is a big live trap. That's a wild dog diet, which includes plenty of just not having anything to eat. Is what she is eating healthy? Possibly not, but it is the diet of a loose dog on her own, which is, whatever is available that even remotely resembles food. That's your wild dog diet, in reality. So, it's not so bad to feed a dog a commercial kibble. At the least, the dog gets to eat more often. You can't develope obesity problems or old age problems if you don't live long enough to develope such problems.

Grains are not evil and some dogs, and cats, do fine on commercial kibbles and I think we each do what we think is best, even if others don't agree.

grab01

I'm a big believer in feeding what works.

 

Amen!

I don't see why there has to be a grain-free bandwagon, or for that matter a grain bandwagon, a RAW bandwagon, a home cooked bandwagon, etc.  Dogs do better on different things.

Honestly, I am not surprised at all by an article like this and not at all surprised that this woman seems to have about as many canine nutritional credentials as my cat.

I've done *tons* of reading for Jack's diet especially and I've discovered a couple of things--

-most people are just talking out of their butts when it comes to dog food

-of those that *do* know what they are talking about it is very, very difficult to find an unbiased source

sillysally

of those that *do* know what they are talking about it is very, very difficult to find an unbiased source

And we have a member that used to offer the benefit of her training, which included nutritional education from her degree program, in addition to actual experience caretaking for wild animals as well as her field trial hounds. I think she got tired of people regurgitating how her education was provided by Iams, that her textbooks were mere propoganda from the commercial pet food industry, which was not the case. Now, she doesn't offer her advice any more. Some people just get tired of being slammed. It's like the reason the Aggie quit beating his head against a brick wall. Because it felt better when he stopped. Every one is a nutritiion-savvy now after reading a few sites on the internet and consider themselves more knowledgable than the CVNs and researchers. So, I agree that it is important to find an unbiased source. It is also important to listen to that unbiased source.

These days, I notice people are less strident in their assumptions and beliefs and are more inclined to do what works, rather than what they believe, which are not always the same thing. It is important for us to know something about nutrition, as owners. To decide what food to feed, whether to homecook. As we can see, the commercial food companies are not perfect or always have the right motives.

In the end, the dog is still doing what he/she has always done. Eating whatever the human can provide.

sillysally

-most people are just talking out of their butts when it comes to dog food

This is probably true, including us on the forums that are also giving their opinions.  

For me though.... I like a base to start with........ I love knowing that this woman has studied nutrition on my breed...and went as far as going to food companies promoting her beliefs because it works for her breed. And it is probably a base for many dog owners....with changes made for their particular dog.  And that is what we are all doing here.....asking and listening to our fellow dog owner friends.... wondering what is working for them...and thinking maybe they will give it a try also.