GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS

ottoluv

If I have any questions about ceramics I'll ask the great dane lady, if I have nutrition questions, I'll ask papillon806.

And that is what makes the world go round!

I might also be asking Pap nutrition questions...the only thing she lacks is the experience that Linda has in raising Danes.

ron2

When I think of wild dog diet, I don't think of an idealized scenario of a dog bring down small animals and eating only that. I think of this stray, almost feral female Lab that is running around the jobsite at work. Some have seen her eating cotton rats. I have left out Jade's old cat food. And a piece of the pig I smoked (just the meat.) A piece of bread I left out. The food scraps that the other workers just toss on the ground whereever they sit or stand. I haven't been able to get closer than 50 feet to her. Right now, she's smart enough to stay away from traffic and the town has no AC. About the only way you would be able to catch her is a big live trap. That's a wild dog diet, which includes plenty of just not having anything to eat. Is what she is eating healthy? Possibly not, but it is the diet of a loose dog on her own, which is, whatever is available that even remotely resembles food. That's your wild dog diet, in reality.

 Most wild dogs are not healthy though.  They eat garbage and scraps to survivie, not for optimal nutrition.  And one thing for sure that wild dogs would not be eating, if given a choice, is a diet consisting of mostly dry cereal.

papillon806

It's as simple as this---carbohydrate=carbohydrate whether it's from a grain or a potato.  Dogs need the type of energy produced from a carbohydrate source. 

I don't think it's that simple. Yes, carb=carb but I feed Zack  diet that is 95% raw meat, and 5% veggie.  He is not getting his energy from carbs at all, and he has tons of energy, shining coat and and his teeth are blindingingly white and tartar free.  I know you said that all dogs are different but I think it's false to say that dogs in general need energy from carbs.  If that were the case than very few people would have success with raw feeding.

jenns

papillon806

It's as simple as this---carbohydrate=carbohydrate whether it's from a grain or a potato.  Dogs need the type of energy produced from a carbohydrate source. 

I don't think it's that simple. Yes, carb=carb but I feed Zack  diet that is 95% raw meat, and 5% veggie.  He is not getting his energy from carbs at all, and he has tons of energy, shining coat and and his teeth are blindingingly white and tartar free.  I know you said that all dogs are different but I think it's false to say that dogs in general need energy from carbs.  If that were the case than very few people would have success with raw feeding.

Like I said previously... 

papillon806

And as always---EVERY dog is DIFFERENT.  Feed your dog based on what you have found works best.  End of story.

jenns

I don't think it's that simple. Yes, carb=carb but I feed Zack  diet that is 95% raw meat, and 5% veggie.  He is not getting his energy from carbs at all, and he has tons of energy, shining coat and and his teeth are blindingingly white and tartar free.  I know you said that all dogs are different but I think it's false to say that dogs in general need energy from carbs.  If that were the case than very few people would have success with raw feeding.

   A report titled "Nutrient Composition of Whole Invertebrate Prey" (excluding fish) showed that whole prey meets or exceeds the 1985 NRC nutrient requirements of dogs. Jessie is getting much fewer carbs than she was on kibble, and more fat, and is doing better than ever.

jenns

ron2

When I think of wild dog diet, I don't think of an idealized scenario of a dog bring down small animals and eating only that. I think of this stray, almost feral female Lab that is running around the jobsite at work. Some have seen her eating cotton rats. I have left out Jade's old cat food. And a piece of the pig I smoked (just the meat.) A piece of bread I left out. The food scraps that the other workers just toss on the ground whereever they sit or stand. I haven't been able to get closer than 50 feet to her. Right now, she's smart enough to stay away from traffic and the town has no AC. About the only way you would be able to catch her is a big live trap. That's a wild dog diet, which includes plenty of just not having anything to eat. Is what she is eating healthy? Possibly not, but it is the diet of a loose dog on her own, which is, whatever is available that even remotely resembles food. That's your wild dog diet, in reality.

 Most wild dogs are not healthy though.  They eat garbage and scraps to survivie, not for optimal nutrition.  And one thing for sure that wild dogs would not be eating, if given a choice, is a diet consisting of mostly dry cereal.

The dog will eat anything, including dry cereal or cereal like products, such as bread. Would a bunch of bread be the healthiest thing? Probably not. But she doesn't have the choice. She eats what is available. Being able to survive on that is what allows her to continue to survive. Also, I think, eating grains can take the place of eating grass and leaves in their function. Providing the odd nutrients not found in the flesh of an animal and the roughage, as it were, to keep the GI system moving.

The stray, somewhat or almost feral dog is eating what is available. She is not ordering from a menu and ordering the carnivore's special. She is omnivorous in habit, even if humans don't think that is right. So, in a sense, she does have a choice, I must admit. She can eat the piece of bread or she can go hungry. Whatever energy she can get from the bread may give a little boost to help go after the cotton rat running around the storage containers.

I'm not talking about what I think her diet should be, I'm talking about what it is. Out there, coat wet from freezing rain, looking for any scrap of edible stuff, whether it is steak tar-tar, or hours old tortillas from the lunch wagon refuse.

Survival of the fittest, as it were, has rewarded her for not being so picky over whether the meal is cotton rat or old cat food.

I do what I can for her. But the town has no AC. You can't catch her. She's smart enough to avoid the traffic. And she is certainly more free than in a shelter kennel. I don't see a collar on her but she may have a home nearby. Which would still prove my point. In spite of having food at home, she still ranges and scavenges. Wild. She doesn't have a human deciding what she will eat by what they give, if they give it. She decides based on whether it appears to be food, or not.

Funny that you keep mentioning bread Ron. Do you know..that was Bubblegums most favorite food I swear.

When we got her...we had EP dog bisquits....and probably milk bones...... she dropped them all. We tried to feed the to her to teach her to SIT.  I said to her breeder that I was trying to teach her things and use treats..... Pam said "give her bread...she loves bread!"    So we did...all the way until the end of her life. Yes...she learned to love the dog bisquits too....but she loved bread until the bitter end.  I also give it to Gibby for treats once on a while...he needs to be fattened up a bit.

dyan

Funny that you keep mentioning bread Ron. Do you know..that was Bubblegums most favorite food I swear.

My in-laws' Lhasa Apso, Mitzi, has always liked having toast when FIL has breakfast. She will pester you until you fix her a piece of toast. She could have some meat or vegetables but she also really liked bread.

Shadow will eat crackers.

Dyan....dogs ARE going to lose weight when you take them off from grains; many of times, grains provide unnecessary filler which can turn to excess fat in the body. It IS scary at first, however, the dog DOES and can gain back weight, which becomes muscle.

A little grain in the diet is ok, I believe too. However, it does not need to be a part of every meal or even every day.

Ron2....I don't believe just any dog becomes obese from living long enough. My aunt's 2 Goldens are 2 & 3yrs old, that's not old at all, they are already overweight at their young age.

I'm surely not trying to preach to anyone about their choice of feeding, lord knows if I had a great dane I couldn't afford to homecook, or even if I had 2 large dogs I couldn't either. I can now because only 3 of the 4 dogs in my house are mine, and 2 are small/toy sized dogs that don't even eat enough to register on the money scale...for homecooking. When I was feeding them canned food, it was $2/can which is very ridiculous IMHO.

My reasoning for going solely to homecooked is it got to where I couldn't afford the good dry dog foods anymore versus the diminishing quality I was starting to see in a lot of premium foods offered on the market. I'm paying a lot less each month to feed my gang, and they are looking much better overall, so that's why I chose this route.

I DO get very tired of de-boning chicken however!

Same can be said about a lot of human type diet fads as well. Eat what works, but the key issue is make it a VARIETY...this is where people go wrong with their animals. They get no rotation, only the same food day after day year after year, I'm not referring to the members on the board, just animal owners in general.

stanton

Ron2....I don't believe just any dog becomes obese from living long enough.

I'm not sure if you missed my point. Obesity is not a result of old age. I'm not saying that a dog that a lot of grainy food all of it's life won't get fat, either. Having enough food to survive tends to beget survival. Survive long enough and one becomes old. However, there are some processes that do change with age, such as basal metabolic rate. In some aged animals, it would not be unheard of to have a lower basal metabolic rate. If fed the same diet that served well when the dog was buring 2,400 calories a day and now he/she is only burning 1,200 cals a day, some of that might be stored as fat.

At this point in time, the stray dog is not in danger of getting obese from eating whatever the humans have cast off. She is thin but finely muscled.

The point I was trying to make is that, while some might say that feeding a food with grains in it may lead to weight gain or even obesity, first the dog has to live long enough to suffer from that and I think it also might have to do with energy expenditure. Some feed working dogs some carbs because it does have extra energy to put up with energy demand. How many cals would you burn if you spent all of today and every day for a month just to search for and get scraps of food? But, if you can be sedentary much of the day and the food is brought to you or you only have to go to the store and get what you want, how many cals are you burning, then? And it would depend on your energy level and what kinds of food and how easily that food stores as fat.

So, no, old age does not lead to obesity. But you have to live to old age first, to even worry about that problem.

papillon806

And as always---EVERY dog is DIFFERENT.  Feed your dog based on what you have found works best.  End of story.

 I know, and I pointed out you said that, but your two statements were contradictory (1. that dogs need energy from a carb source, and 2. every dog is different), and neither statement can be true at the same time.  Sorry, just trying to clarify things. 

jessies_mom

A report titled "Nutrient Composition of Whole Invertebrate Prey" (excluding fish) showed that whole prey meets or exceeds the 1985 NRC nutrient requirements of dogs. Jessie is getting much fewer carbs than she was on kibble, and more fat, and is doing better than ever.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

stanton

My reasoning for going solely to homecooked is it got to where I couldn't afford the good dry dog foods anymore versus the diminishing quality I was starting to see in a lot of premium foods offered on the market.

  My reason is because Jessie's allergic to so many ingredients in so many kibbles that our options were very limited. And, I don't need to worry about what happens if a company decides to change their formula and add something she can't have (like Nutro Lamb did by adding potato protein). I had her diet designed by someone else ( I wanted to make sure it was balanced.) The amount of protein is  37% and it's 23% fat. After being on it awhile, Jessie started looking trimmer around her middle (better tummy tuck) and her legs were more muscular; not bad for a 10 year old dog.

 Stanton, it sounds like your dogs are doing great; do you follow a specific recipe or plan?

stanton

Dyan....dogs ARE going to lose weight when you take them off from grains; many of times, grains provide unnecessary filler which can turn to excess fat in the body. It IS scary at first, however, the dog DOES and can gain back weight, which becomes muscle.

Gibson is a growing boy...he is nine months old....and has always been on the under weight side.  I also think he was in a growth spurt while I was trying to home feed him......so if they loose weight at the same time they are growing a lot......it could be a lot of weight he was under...looking very skinny.   I'm not willing to sacrifice his weight right now.... He loves his food and is on good food that I believe in ( Eagle Pack ) but I was convinced he needed to be off kibble....so I gave it a go-round.   I will not try it again until he is at least mostly done growing.  It is hard with a big dog...I made tons of food only to realized it was just a couple of days worth of food.

Jessie's Mom....right now I'm using HK Preference pre-mix as the base of the diet, and simply adding my own meats, of which I rotate between chicken, turkey, beef heart, and any organ meat I can get my hands on. They also get canned salmon, eggs, yogurt, etc.

For me, using a pre-mix of dehydrated veggies/fruits with also containing a vitamin premix balanced with the correct calcium based off the amount of meat instructed to mix with it is just so much easier for me then doing it completely on my own. I was so worried about not getting the calcium, etc balanced correctly, so this has worked great for me thus far.

Ron2 - I do agree any dog can get fat if overfed, whether young or old, if they're not burning calories, unfortunately that is becoming more and more common. Sad to say that I see several young pups at the dog park weekly that are grossly overweight by the time they are a year of age....it's really sad.