New Frontier Kibble

OK -- I wrote a whole response to the above and it did not "post with it? I have so much trouble with this new format!! DOH lets see.... I said, by first glance I would thing Innova would be a higher protein food. And perhaps all the carb ingredients are the source of the Kcals? Just a guess. Then look at a food like Pro Plan Sensitive, and I would think it would be a lower protein food, but is 27%, but has lower Kcals than say, Innova. It can make ya crazy. The Abady kibble is the simple ingredient list I look for, and you say they removed barley? Since they DO NOT list ingredients....grrrrr... at the Abady web site I will dig around the internet and see if I can find a new list. I am also assuming it is very high priced like all other Abady foods. Besides the fact that even finding it where i live is impossible, or the shipping costs would be insane.

24% protein is going to contain approx 100 kcals REGARDLESS of where the protein comes from! If it's 24% protein from meat, corn, eggs, or cottage cheese, it's still 24% protein and is going to provide the same number of kcals.

The Innova Adult at 557 kcals per cup, if you'll notice on the GA, they don't include all the EFA's in with the total fat % and this in itself can boost the kcals count in a favorable light. If they listed them all lumped in together, then the fat % would be higher and could be easier to calculate for the novice nutritional geek. There are so many ingredients listed separately on the GA, it's difficult to decide how they came up with their numbers.

 

sarah_b

The Abady kibble is the simple ingredient list I look for, and you say they removed barley?

Waggin Tails has the ingredients, and it does have barley. Funny, they don't list the ingredients for all the Abady foods.  With shipping, this food is really expensive, and looks like it is a really hard food to find.

This is from their web site: waggintails.com

Chicken Meal,Rice,Pearled Barley,Beef Fat,Canola Oil,Salt,Sunflower Oil,Whole Dried Egg,Natural Flavoring plus essential vitamins and minerals.

Well, at least they list some of the ingredients.

sooner

cc431

Because he cares about the animals and first responsibility is to animal nutrition...not to the shareholders of a company.  And the results are indeed fantastic.

 

The same could be said by any one of hundreds of dog food company employees and owners. I don't believe they're all in it out of the goodness of their hearts, but I don't believe he's the only one who cares either. 

Oh, and I know what a biochemist is, and I reiterate my question.

True, that could be say by any number of companies.  However, Abady does put up a fight for you and is in your corner battling for what he feels is best for the animals.  Abady will aggressively take on interests groups and challenge thought, pressure them in attempts to help the overall betterment of all the animals, regardless if you care for his nutritional approach or buy his products.  The Whole Dog Journal has a lot of influence.  They will never recommend his products because of ingredients.  Pressure from the Abady Co did force the WDJ to change positioning in efforts prevent further detriment to animals.  IE, listen to the WDJ you would avoid animal fat.  Fat, regardless of the animal, so long as it is fat it has benefit.  Fat is an essential for carnivores.  Regardless whether it is pork fat, beef fat, poultry fat, road-kill fat, it has benefit to the dogs health and nutrition.  Like him or not, Abady is everybody's watchdog when it comes to what is right and wrong.  He is in your corner and cares about the animals.  He is not afraid to take on the big players and make a heck of a fuss when it comes to that sort of thing, regardless of how people feel about him or the products.  He will fight for what he feels is best for the animals.

This thread is exhaustingly lacking in logic and non-voodoo math. I can't even begin to correct every fuzzy math or logic problem, so I just thought I'd mention that, and say, again, as I do in every Abady thread, that you need to compare calories by WEIGHT (kilograms), not volume (cups). Calories per cup just tells us how dense the food is. Who cares whether you have to feed 1 or 2 cups?? Calories per kg tells us the price comparison and value to the dog.

chelsea_b

... Calories per cup just tells us how dense the food is. Who cares whether you have to feed 1 or 2 cups?? ...

People with chubby dogs?

sarah_b

...The Abady kibble is the simple ingredient list I look for, and you say they removed barley? Since they DO NOT list ingredients....grrrrr... at the Abady web site I will dig around the internet and see if I can find a new list.

Hi Sarah,  I think (without looking back to the early posts) I mentioned guessing they removed the Pearled Barley because it is out of the granular.  I did call the company last week to follow up on that but didn't get back to you all...sorry.  I mentioned to them I read the ingredients at Alpha Nutrition website and inquired specifically about Pearled Barley still being in the profile.  Yes, Pearled Barley is there and that is a current profile at Alpha Nutrition.

cc431

sooner

cc431

Because he cares about the animals and first responsibility is to animal nutrition...not to the shareholders of a company.  And the results are indeed fantastic.

 

The same could be said by any one of hundreds of dog food company employees and owners. I don't believe they're all in it out of the goodness of their hearts, but I don't believe he's the only one who cares either. 

Oh, and I know what a biochemist is, and I reiterate my question.

True, that could be say by any number of companies.  However, Abady does put up a fight for you and is in your corner battling for what he feels is best for the animals.  Abady will aggressively take on interests groups and challenge thought, pressure them in attempts to help the overall betterment of all the animals, regardless if you care for his nutritional approach or buy his products.  The Whole Dog Journal has a lot of influence.  They will never recommend his products because of ingredients.  Pressure from the Abady Co did force the WDJ to change positioning in efforts prevent further detriment to animals.  IE, listen to the WDJ you would avoid animal fat.  Fat, regardless of the animal, so long as it is fat it has benefit.  Fat is an essential for carnivores.  Regardless whether it is pork fat, beef fat, poultry fat, road-kill fat, it has benefit to the dogs health and nutrition.  Like him or not, Abady is everybody's watchdog when it comes to what is right and wrong.  He is in your corner and cares about the animals.  He is not afraid to take on the big players and make a heck of a fuss when it comes to that sort of thing, regardless of how people feel about him or the products.  He will fight for what he feels is best for the animals.

Abady didn't change WDJ's approach to critiquing dog food all by himself. Wysong also had something to do with it. From what I understand you are a very strong supporter of Abady. But have you ever noticed how similar the Abady philosophy is to the Wysong philosophy? To me it has always seemed like Abady took his (and I quote the website) "Genius Level thinking" straight fromt the Wysong philosophy, gave it a bit of a spin, and crowned himself the genius of animal nutrition. I don't doubt he knows a few things about feeding animals, and I agree with most of his philosophy, but to me the company just comes off as secretive and hostile. It seems to me that Abady is using rhetoric to sell his products rather than expounding on the merit of the products themselves. I do believe that this is why it is so hard to get any concrete information about any of Abady's formulas. If you like the food so much why not argue its merits? Numbers and facts can be tossed around till the sun goes down but really it all comes down to how well something works for you. I think everyone knows this. And I also think that everyone is just trying to point out that the marketing of this product is not sound and may in fact be somewhat deceitful. I don't feed Wysong BTW, just noticed how Abady takes a lot of marketing cues from that company.

cc431

chelsea_b

... Calories per cup just tells us how dense the food is. Who cares whether you have to feed 1 or 2 cups?? ...

People with chubby dogs?

Let's say food A has 300 calories per cup, and a cup weighs 75 grams. Food B has 600 calories per cup, and a cup weighs 150 grams. They have the EXACT same number of calories. You buy a 20 pound bag of either, and it's the SAME amount of calories. All that would differ is the size by VOLUME of the bag, and the VOLUME of food fed. Food A is either bigger kibbles, or has more air in each kibble, or both. Who cares?? I don't. If everything else about the foods was the same, I'd choose Food A, because my dog would think she was eating more food. You'd choose Food B even if it's twice the price of Food A, because even after I explain this, you'll STILL think it's cheaper and better somehow.

Having just read this entire thread with all it's fuzzy logic and fuzzier math, I just want to answer the question about Innova.  Its calorie count (per cup) is high because 1 cup of it weighs 159 grams - quite a bit more than most kibbles.  It's the density of the kibble that matters, along with the shape and size of the pieces (some shapes will allow more to fit in a cup than others will).  Kibble that's less puffed up with air and leaves less air between the pieces = more calories per cup.

It has nothing to do with the ingredients. 

beth82

Kibble that's less puffed up with air and leaves less air between the pieces = more calories per cup.

Gosh, I'm so glad someone else gets this. I was feeling rather alien.

Some foods DO have more calories than others, but you need to compare calories per kilogram to tell. Calories per cup only tells you how much to feed by volume.

 You aren't alone Chelsea!  I keep saying that too but it's always lost in the barrage of fuzzy logic, red herrings, and straw men.

iggypop

Abady didn't change WDJ's approach to critiquing dog food all by himself. Wysong also had something to do with it. From what I understand you are a very strong supporter of Abady. But have you ever noticed how similar the Abady philosophy is to the Wysong philosophy? To me it has always seemed like Abady took his (and I quote the website) "Genius Level thinking" straight fromt the Wysong philosophy, gave it a bit of a spin, and crowned himself the genius of animal nutrition. I don't doubt he knows a few things about feeding animals, and I agree with most of his philosophy, but to me the company just comes off as secretive and hostile. It seems to me that Abady is using rhetoric to sell his products rather than expounding on the merit of the products themselves. I do believe that this is why it is so hard to get any concrete information about any of Abady's formulas. If you like the food so much why not argue its merits? Numbers and facts can be tossed around till the sun goes down but really it all comes down to how well something works for you. I think everyone knows this. And I also think that everyone is just trying to point out that the marketing of this product is not sound and may in fact be somewhat deceitful. I don't feed Wysong BTW, just noticed how Abady takes a lot of marketing cues from that company.

Yes, Iggypop...legendary punk rocker.  I had noticed Wysong talks a carnivore theme.  Many companies do that but don't deliver and Wysong is a perfect example. Ever note those ingredients?  Look at Maintenance Canine Diet by Wysong.  What do you see?  I see Rice, Corn, Soybeans, Carrots, Barley, Flax Seeds, Dried Kelp (seaweed), Wheat Grass Powder, Barley Grass, Sage extract, Garlic, blk pepper, and Artichokes.  Is that what you consider a carnivore type feed?  Sounds like quite the omnivore buffet if you ask me.  Yes, they talk up the carnivore theme but unfortunately the simply do not deliver.  We witness a lot of companies doing the same thing, talking the talk, but walking backward in a different direction.  I see white rice and pearled barley in New Frontier.  You decide.

Abady has been producing feeds for over 30 years.  It's more likely Wysong copied the Abady approach...but hardly delivers.

 

beth82

Having just read this entire thread with all it's fuzzy logic and fuzzier math, I just want to answer the question about Innova.  Its calorie count (per cup) is high because 1 cup of it weighs 159 grams - quite a bit more than most kibbles.  It's the density of the kibble that matters, along with the shape and size of the pieces (some shapes will allow more to fit in a cup than others will).  Kibble that's less puffed up with air and leaves less air between the pieces = more calories per cup. It has nothing to do with the ingredients. 

Quite a bit a talk about density, no numbers though?  How come?  We know Abady New Frontier weight 5 oz per cup.  Lets see some comparisons.  Links provided in the opening post clearly state 5.0 oz per cup.  Just curious as to all the talk about fuzzy math, voodoo economics and density yet no numbers? 

cc431

Quite a bit a talk about density, no numbers though?  How come?  We know Abady New Frontier weight 5 oz per cup.  Lets see some comparisons.  Links provided in the opening post clearly state 5.0 oz per cup.  Just curious as to all the talk about fuzzy math, voodoo economics and density yet no numbers? 

I just looked at Innova reg adult.  One cup 5.6 oz.  Heavier by 6/10 of an oz AND STILL less in the cals (34).  591-557=34.   The heavier feed can't keep pace probably because Abady has more meat, while Innova concentrates on fruit and veggies.