New Frontier Kibble

cc431

How come then New Frontier Kibble can put out 591 cals per cup and Orijen (reg adult) puts out 483 at best despite NF being 26% and the other 42 ???  There is a valid explanation but I it is not coming across.

No idea.  As I said before I don't feed Abady or Orijen and don't plan to feed either.  I don't really care what the Kcals are for either and wasn't talking about that before, I was talking about min. guaranteed protein from meat. Sorry, I don't see what "valid" explanation there is for numbers you are making up (100% - 70% = 30%, not 21%).  I also don't see why kcals have to be in perfect direct correlation to min. protein levels.... 

I'll say it for the THIRD time: I don't really care either way for Orijen or Abady or what the Kcals are for either.  My point was that the article in your original post, the starting point of this thread, claims that Abady is a "carnivore" diet and "is better than ALL other diets in every respect" (direct quote).  My point was that I don't see how a carnivore diet includes multiple grains in the first five ingredients and that this Abady kibble has LESS protein from meat than at least one other kibble on the market (proven by simple math with Abady's own numbers), so it is NOT better than "all other diets in every respect".  Sure, it has more Kcals than anything else, it is better than all other diets in THAT respect.

Liesje

No idea.  As I said before I don't feed Abady or Orijen and don't plan to feed either.  I don't really care what the Kcals are for either and wasn't talking about that before, I was talking about min. guaranteed protein from meat. Sorry, I don't see what "valid" explanation there is for numbers you are making up (100% - 70% = 30%, not 21%).  I also don't see why kcals have to be in perfect direct correlation to min. protein levels.... 

I'll say it for the THIRD time: I don't really care either way for Orijen or Abady or what the Kcals are for either.  My point was that the article in your original post, the starting point of this thread, claims that Abady is a "carnivore" diet and "is better than ALL other diets in every respect" (direct quote).  My point was that I don't see how a carnivore diet includes multiple grains in the first five ingredients and that this Abady kibble has LESS protein from meat than at least one other kibble on the market (proven by simple math with Abady's own numbers), so it is NOT better than "all other diets in every respect".  Sure, it has more Kcals than anything else, it is better than all other diets in THAT respect.

OK, thanks for your perspective.

Chungwa

Sorry if I'm being really dense, but what do you mean by 25% lost to the fruits and veggies? Or are you saying that 25% of the 4200 kcal/kg doesn't count because it comes from a non-meant source? 

The reason this feed is lower in cals per cup despite being 42% protein as opposed to a 26% protein feed is because:

Some would argue why the grain in NF?  How can it be a carnivore feed w/ grain? Grain is not the problem per se, it is the GLUTEN PROTEIN from grain that is the issue.  Many argue (and again I agree) gluten protein is outright dangerous for your dog.  White rice is in fact brown rice with the fibrous hull, source of the gluten removed.  It is generally deemed safe for those avoiding gluten in the diet.  It works the same with dogs and there are no allergy-causing grains in Abady products.  Pearled Barley is more expensive than Barley.  Again, the hull removed taking away probably 95% of gluten and fibrous material.  This done because Abady feels carnivores do much better from a standpoint of health on low fiber, low carb, gluten free diets.  Some may have difficulty seeing that but that is the reasoning.  Feeds needs to be priced so they are within the scope of a wide range of consumers.  White rice and Pearled Barley, relatively safe ingredients are in there for economics to bring the product within range of more buyers at the same time helping to achieve low carb, low fiber.

I understand that you say 25% doesn't count then. I just don't agree that it doesn't count.

cc431

I realize it is very difficult for many to see but that is the very intent of a lot of these companies

See, I have a small problem with the above statement. I don't happen to think the maker's of Orijen are especially sneaky (I think there are a few dog food companies that are, though. I don't happen to think Abady is one of them, btw). I certainly don't take everything they say at face value (they are a business, after all!). But saying that they're tricking me because you, personally, don't think some of their ingredients should count towards nutritional values isn't especially convincing. Anyways, I'm guessing we may have to just agree to disagree on this

sarah_b

Good gosh -- I can't even get the link to post. I really do give up. The food is Innova adult. I will try to find it listed somewhere I can copy.

30% of the remainder of protein is from fat

Ummm, sorry, but fat does not provide protein, if you want to get technical. At least that is what I was taught in my ANIMAL NUTRITION classes.

is the protein in question and some would argue has no biological value to the dog

it is irrelevant where the kcals come from. Be it fat, protein, fruits and veggies, or other carbs. A kcal is a kcal. The definition of a kilocalorie is: energy (heat) necessary to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water one degree celcius. So, regardless of whence it came, it is still a kcal.

There was another question posted about where the majority of the kcals were coming from and if that poster would like to PM me, I'd be more than glad to show you how to figure how it breaks down. Basically, protein and carbs provide apprx. 4 kcals per gram and fat contributes apprx. 9 kcals per gram. Using the GA, you should be able to figure which is contributing more.

White rice is in fact brown rice with the fibrous hull, source of the gluten removed.

Actually, rice is considered gluten-free regardless of it's color. Brown rice is actually more nutritious, but doesn't have the fiberous outer coating. So there is really NO basis for your statement. While the white rice may be lower in FIBER, brown rice is a better grain source (and more expensive in most cases).

Also, gluten is usually found in the core of the grain, not the shell. The gluten is what feeds the seed, so to speak, while it is germinating. It is the protein-providing source for the seed that ensures it gets a good start and root. It is encased safely INSIDE the seed, not coated on the outside of it.

kennel_keeper

Ummm, sorry, but fat does not provide protein, if you want to get technical. At least that is what I was taught in my ANIMAL NUTRITION classes.

Good catch.  The website (Orijen) mentioned where the energy in the feed comes and that is where I got the 30% from fat.  Thanks.

Brown Rice being more nutritious is matter of opinion in regards to dogs.  100% in agreement in regard to humans and I would prefer Brown Rice over White Rice any day of the week....but not for my dog.  For those seeking more fiber for their dog than it is much better than White Rice.  For people like myself who are seeking lowest possible fiber for their dogs, white rice is a better option.

In regards to the question about about how Innova Adult can pump up the cals at 24% protein, my guess would be Cottage Cheese?

Your Poodle is cute! 

Charlie

In regards to the question about about how Innova Adult can pump up the cals at 24% protein, my guess would be Cottage Cheese?

How do you figure that? Cottage cheese is very low in fat (if it has any) and would not really pump up the kcal count that much. However, I've often wondered how they are calculating the kcals, because by my math, it doesn't add up.

We do know that dogs utilize the kcals from protein to build lean muscle (basically) and they use the kcals from fat for energy/stamina, and the kcals from carbs for quick energy (if not used right away, it is stored as fat in the body). So, we can conclude that a diet of moderate-high protein, moderate fat, and low-moderate carbs are going to be close to the ideal for most dogs with a moderate energy level. Of course, dogs with higher energy needs are going to need a modified diet to account for the increase in energy output. Now, lets face it, most of our pets don't necessarily need super high protein, fat, and carb levels and unless your dog is a working/hunting breed OR has a super fast metabolism, then there is no need for the elevated levels. I do believe from what I've been taught, dogs DO need a certain amount of fiber in their diet. It encourages GI health and regularity. It also feeds the GOOD bacteria (probiotics), which aids in digestion.

Dogs are omnivores (dietitically) and can/do/will eat other things besides meat in the wild, but not just because they can't find something better. They eat it because they NEED it in their diet. Our dogs have evolved over thousands of years to be scavengers and have adapted well to a life living off the scraps of humans. I'd hate to think what my dogs would look like if they only ever got what meat they could get, probably with several fasting days thrown in there in between meals.

I do feed a high protein food to my little dogs and my standard poo (who is recovering from an early pregnancy and lost muscle due to nursing), but my hunting dogs are doing great on the EP and *gasp* it has CORN in it!!!!! As a matter of fact, they do better on this than the higher protein, less carbs foods that I have tried them on.

kennel_keeper

How do you figure that? Cottage cheese is very low in fat (if it has any) and would not really pump up the kcal count that much. However, I've often wondered how they are calculating the kcals, because by my math, it doesn't add up.

 Low in fat, low in carbs but very high in protein?  Something is pushing the numbers up, Cottage Cheese must have an impact in that respect?

You mention corn in the EP with a gasp.  I wouldn't be too overly concerned but could be rolling the dice to a small degree.  I fed diets with corn for years and never had a problem.  I always felt the corn allergy was a myth (mind as well be allergic to outside air as well) and one of those scapegoat ingredients for the vets when the really have no clue as to which ingredient is the culprit.  Abady pulled the corn not too long ago, but nothing to do with fungus.  Abady asserts corn in no longer corn as we once knew it, it has changed possibly to the higher demand for alternate fuels.  The chemical structure has changed, all hybrid stuff to probably to grow faster, quicker, etc.  In other words, we messed with it too much, not mothers natures corn anymore.  All dogs did well on corn where as now 95% would fare as normal, and the potential for a small percentage to have problems because of our interference with mother nature..  Not good enough, Abady gears its products for all dogs, not just the vast majority.   Corn was therefore pulled.  Basic Maintenance (what I use now) w/ corn was about 1250 cals per cup.  Today, Basic Maintenance is only 870 per cup.  One ingredient had that much of an impact on the numbers.  When you think of one ingredient like Cottage Cheese, who knows, drop the Cottage Cheese you could lose maybe 100 cals coming from the protein content?

I realize dogs will eat whatever and are not strictly meat-eaters.  Carnivores do fare better on low carb, low fiber, high protein diets.  What makes the diet "carnivore" is when you can keep the carbs low and the fibers even lower.  Abady clearly posts in Carb Content on the box (less than 21%) and I have never seen another manufacturer post those numbers.  Does anyone here know of a company that posts Carb Content?  If so please let me know, I would love to investigate the product further.  Abady probably does that being proud of the fact the keep the carb content low.  That is what makes in geared for carnivores, not the fact that it contains this or that or a certain amount of grain matter.  Abady states in the literature a small amount a carb IS beneficial for dogs, and helps pregnant and lactating bitches regulate blood sugar.  When a product crosses the threshold of being carb-based (rations at 40/50/60/70% carb) your not on a carnivore style feed anymore because it's simply too high in carbs for all dogs to preform well.

Thanks KK.  Hunting seasons starts next Sat.  Plus I am working new hours for most of the season (8-4).  I can get home and have a few hours in the field everyday after work as opposed to just hunting on Saturdays and using vacation time.

cc431

kennel_keeper

How do you figure that? Cottage cheese is very low in fat (if it has any) and would not really pump up the kcal count that much. However, I've often wondered how they are calculating the kcals, because by my math, it doesn't add up.

 /P>