Prong Collar

The idea that you would start with a prong collar on an IG seems ludicrous to me, and I would highly recommend just going with a sighthound collar (if you like fashion, try Fancy Nancy's - great custom collars, not so high prices), and the Easy Walk Harness, then taking the advice offered before about finding a good trainer.  If your dog isn't motivated by food, the most probable scenarios are: he likes something better than food as his reward, or (more likely) he is too worried to eat.  Look for stress signals - yawning, ears back and head or eyes averted, sniffing the ground, tongue flicks, shaking, etc.  Remove the distractions, even if it means you cannot attend a group class and have to take a few private lessons.  Or, find a facility that offers "petite pals" class where all the dogs are 25 lbs. or less.
Pushing on a dog's butt engages his "oppositional reflex" and you are correct that he doesn't like it.  A dog that hasn't got the basic skills of sit, down, leave it, come, and stay is not ready for heel/automatic sit IMHO.  Your trainer is rushing and confusing your dog.  BTW, if you have an IG that sits at all, you are ahead of the game - don't make it unpleasant for him to do it LOL.
If your dog pulls, that means he is being rewarded for it - so, if you are going with him when he pulls, stop!  Go the other way, instead, then when he catches up, C/T (click and treat). 
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Trainer search:
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This dog sounds like a good boy that simply doesn't understand why he is being prodded and pushed while he is anxious.  Start slowly alone or in small groups - and don't use biscuits for your treats - use something stinky and irresistable.  Roast beef, liverwurst, salmon brownies, liver treats (see the dog recipe archive here).

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl   Oh, what's an IG?

 
I was wondering about this too,  best guess...Italian Greyhound

the force collar I was looking at had sharp spikes, not copper bumps. It's a choker though, no limit to its tightening like a prong. I've tried a prong and a regular chain choker on myself, and the prong kind of pinched and the chain hurt and left a bruise. Send me a force collar and I'll try it out as as well.

All of the around the neck correction collars work BECAUSE THEY HURT, but there are varying degrees of hurt in there. A prong because the spokes are pointed inwards does not actually puncture the skin, it pinches. Which yes, still does cause discomfort. But it looks a lot more painful than it actually is. The force collar with the sharp metal pointy things on the inside? How could that NOT puncture the dog's skin? They are all directly aimed right at the skin of the neck. The ones shown in Ixas_girl's post are not rounded in any way shape or form. And if they were, how would the collar then work "for the most stubborn dogs" as all the websites that sell them advertised?

Folks, none of these things work by tickling the dog into submission. They work because they cause the dog discomfort to varying degrees. You're not simulating a mother's gentle correction to her pup (as I've heard some people claim), you are not gently applying pressure to some magical obedience pressure point (I've heard that claimed to), you are applying discomfort, and sometimes real pain. Whether or not you are okay with that is up to you.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

I wasn't sure about the prong, a-t a-l-l ! (And I only used it for a short time.) But, I followed a suggestion to wrap it around my own neck and pull. I did that and was amazed that, because of the slip feature, the collar put equal distribution around my neck, so no particular prong pressed harder than any other. It felt more like a firm, continuous grip and didn't at all feel pointy.

 
That is the key, with the force collar however all the pressure goes to the front of the dog's neck, a simple flat collar puts more pressure than the prong collar, now add those "spikes" to the flat collar and you will have a dog with lacerations, with the prong collar at least you can buy plastic covers for each "nail" if you still feel uncomfortable about it

My uncle and I have used a prong collar on his dog and I've never seen her respond in pain.  When I use it, she responds more to the sound of the metal chain tightening through the collar than the slight pinch, IMO.  My uncle really tugs on her hard, but I think he sends her mixed signals and when she's with me, a few quick cinches to remind her is all it takes for her "heel" to improve.  I read that with any chain collar, you should never have the dog used to it being tight and pulling, but it's the noise of the little corrective jerks that they should respond to.  We had to start using the prong collar b/c he never taught her how to WALK on a leash.  He takes her running for 5 miles every morning, so she thought leash = RUN.  When she became fully grown, having her constantly lunging forward and pulling so much she would barf was not going to work.  She was so used to this behavior that he had to switch to something other than her regular leash to get her to pay attention.  Now, leash + nylon collar = RUN and leash + prong collar = walk at heel.  The prongs help remind her that we are there and WE are in control.

The prong collar does LOOK nasty at first glance, but when you know how it is put on, how it is used, how the pressure is applied and how it self corrects with a limit to how far it tightens and compare that to the force collar (which doesn't look like it has a limit to how far it tightens - like a check chain) I know which one I would rather put on myself.  Having said that, I don't like any of these kind of devices.  So call me old fashioned and shoot me.
 
houndlove, you took the words out of my mouth.  These kinds of devices DO cause pain - or at the very least discomfort - that's WHY they work.  Don't be fooled just because the dog doesn't show signs of pain - dogs are stoic creatures and often the pain has to be quite intense before they betray it.  My understanding is that it's true that the dog responds to the sound of the device - but I think that this is because it is a reminder of/precursor to the pain/discomfort and they take the appropriate action to avoid it....

the way I was taught to use a choker, hard jerk n release, I can assure you the dog is not responding to the noise of the chain. You're fooling yourself if you believe that- it hurts quite a lot if you give yourself a choker jerk n release.
I have a video of a very hard pain-insensitive police dog being trained, yelping very loudly after being given a correction with a prong collar.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

the way I was taught to use a choker, hard jerk n release, I can assure you the dog is not responding to the noise of the chain. You're fooling yourself if you believe that- it hurts quite a lot if you give yourself a choker jerk n release.
I have a video of a very hard pain-insensitive police dog being trained, yelping very loudly after being given a correction with a prong collar.

Ella had marks on her neck from a prong collar that a BEAST of a trainer/behaviorist caused when he "popped" the prong everytime she looked at another dog.
She didn't yelp in pain, but she was CLEARLY unhappy about it.


I won't ever use a prong collar to train my dog for anything, ever again.

Boy I sure hate to see a dog less than full grown running five miles every morning.
 
when I used a prong with Thor, I kept him on a 2 foot traffic lead.  I didn't "issue corrections" nor did I let him lunge to the end of the lead.    Being a pretty smart boy he quickly learned that pulling and trying to hurry me along did nothing but cause discomfort on his neck, while NOT pullling meant we got where we were going but that he ALSO got lots of attention, praise and no discomfort.  German shepherds are pretty pain insensitive, but that little pressure or discomfort was what did the trick.  Now, I've learned enough that I don't NEED a prong because I'm able to train properly from the get go.....

If you heard a beep and then got smacked upside the head unless you were standing with your hands on your hips, you'd put your hands on your hips every time you heard the beep. It's not the beep you'd be responding to, but the fact that the beep is the predictor of pain unless you do something to stop it from happening first. And don't you think you'd be a tiny bit stressed out living like that?

I've heard so many people say that the dog is responding to the sound of the chain, it's not that they're hurting their dog (which is right up there with the magical pressure point/correction of mother dog theories). No, the dog is responding because it associates the sound of the chain with having been hurt in the past. The sound is a predictor of discomfort and the dog has learned that it can make the pain not happen if it does something else instead. With skilled training this is just a tiny part of the whole picture, but it's still in there.

I'm not even saying don't use these things (though personally I don't), but that if you are going to use them, be honest about what is going on. Using discomfort and pain to train an animal (including humans) is an age-old technique, but call it what it is.

yeah, I don't think one should ever deliver a collar correction regardless of what kind of collar you have on the dog; they just aren't very effective in training. Prongs are great for re-training pullers if you follow Glenda's protocol-- short leash, dog self corrects instead of being actively corrected.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Using discomfort and pain to train an animal (including humans) is an age-old technique, but call it what it is.

 
Using pain i agree, discomfort is not wrong and "old-age" does not mean always "bad", even Ian Dunbar agrees with that

I recall a post maybe a year or two ago.  This poster was at a summer barbecue party I think and noted a dog sticking to his master like glue.  When he moved the dog moved, always close to his side calm and relaxed.  He noted there was no e-collar
or any visible gizmo.  I think Mick did give a reply; I had my thoughts at the time but don't think I had bothered to post.

Anyway, I see this as being done several ways, one more involved and time consuming than the other.  The first approach would be the collar-tab-lead method.  Started with a long rope type lead, get shorter, eventually shorter, thiner, lighter until down to practically short fishing line, then no line at all.  So long as the Tab is attached, the dog will still think he is connected.  This is work and time.  Dedication, weeks and months of training, and a very good approach.

Remember, the poster stated he saw nothing unusual on the dog, not even a Tab.

My next thought  that came to mind was indeed the Force Collar.  Looking on the outside like a regular flat leather collar, nobody would be any the wiser.  Strong line yet hard to see is attached to the pant belt keeper.  Picture if you will say 5-6' of 50 lb test salt-water clear fishing line.  Other end of the line is attached to the Force Collar.  In a very short amount of time and  light work, the dog knows he can't wonder further than a few feet from his owner without feeling some slight discomfort from the Force Collar....and bingo, you've got them at the barbecue party thinking you're some sort of master dog handler.

Also, some dogs are just like that. I had a friend with a black lab who behaved just that way. She'd been raised as a puppy by this guy and they had a very special, very close bond. They were each other's lives and she rarely wore a collar of any kind. It was just the way the dog was.

Or you can simply keep rewarding the dog for maintaining that position and over time the dog associates that position with being rewarded, so they maintain it. There's no need to physically force a dog to be by your side if you make it worthwhile to them.