Dog Community

Prong Collar

Posted : 3/20/2007 3:22:25 PM

Hi. I'm new to the forum and I have a question.
I have a 4 year old IG that needs more leash manners. He's been through a Petsmart class (which I don't think he learned much more from than he already knew) when he was about a year. The main thing he learned from the class was that it's ok to sit on a tile floor, if that gives you any idea how sensitive (and neurotic

) he is. Prior to taking him to this class I had clicker trained his basic commands at home, but every new surface took him like a month of working with him to even get him to do the command (I don't think he actually sat on concrete till he was a year old.....I tried to out wait him, that dog can stand for hours....) Anyway because he still wants to dart up to strangers and around to sniff things on leash, I was looking for another training class for him. I tried the clicker to remedy this behavior as before, but I just can't find anything more rewarding to him than getting to his goal. He isn't interested in treats, no matter how yummy, I could wave any toy right in front of his face, I could do kartwheels, it still would not get his attention. So I found another place that offered classes....I missed the first lesson but showed up to the doggie socialization hour the trainer runs, met him, seemed like a nice guy, didn't really ask too many questions about the class because it said online it stressed the importance of positive reinforcement.
So I show up to the next class and the trainer has all the dogs fitted with prong collars from the start

He put the collar around my arm and let me feel it and stuff, but I still don't know about this......I've tried it on him for a couple of days and he doesn't pull on it, but I just feel so guilty. The trainer said that if it rubbed his neck too much we could switch it out (I'm assuming wrap it with cloth from what i've read online) and if it just didn't work for him we could do something else, but he said he had such good results with it that he was using it pretty much on all his dogs now..........So I decided I'd give it a try. Is this a terrible thing to do?

We started working on heeling with an automatic sit (ie push on butt pull up on collar for sit) He does not like to have his butt pushed down, and the trainer observed this and said, well he already knows how to sit, so just ask him and don't do that part. But then he wants us to gently pull up on the collar while we massage down their back to get them to learn that "energy up the collar means energy down the butt." and pulling up on the collar will be a correction for the sit/stay. Well, after about the 4th time I did this practicing with him the next day every time I reach for his collar he gets out of the sit position. I don't want him to unlearn sit because he doesn't like what I'm doing.......The trainer is going to be out of town next week so it will be 2 weeks till our next class......
I don't know whether I should just ditch this class and find something I'm more comfortable with or give this a try because what I've been doing before isn't working.

Sorry for the incredibly long post but I'm so confused!

Ixas_girl

Posted : 3/20/2007 3:48:05 PM

Welcome, superig! [

]

There are a bunch of threads archived here for "leash behavior", "pulling on leash", and for various corrective collars and harnesses like chokes, prongs/pinches, halti's, etc. Use the search tab at the top and you'll find lots of good opinions and heated debates!

As far as your training class, I support you in choosing to be in a class that you'd be "more comfortable with". There are a variety of training methods and behavior philosophies. I think you just need to slog through some more to find peices of what fits you best.

You'll find lots of links regarding training methods and behavior philosophies in those archives too.

Oh, what's an IG?

seashell

Posted : 3/20/2007 4:00:49 PM

The trainer for the class my dog just finished used prong collars, which I hated at first but NOTHING else had worked. I hated using the prong collar for awhile, however my dog doesn't seem to mind. In fact when I get out the prong collar she gets all excited about it and tries to lick my face. Obviously it isn't bothering her and I saw a lot of improvement with her during the classes. Plus the instructor explained how to transition from the prong to a flat collar in the future.

Deb

Posted : 3/20/2007 5:21:27 PM

Welcome to the forum!

The bottom line is that if you don't feel comfortable with the class, then you need to find something else. The class is for you, to teach you how to train your dog. It's not for the dog, exactly.

I personally don't have a problem with prongs for some dogs. But I don't think any trainer should put one kind of collar on all dogs, and you certainly don't have to use corrections or force your dog into position in order to have the dog learn. There is no reason for you to do it this one trainer's way if you don't want to. Clicker training may be better for you.

Just ask for your money back and try someone else.

Chuffy

Posted : 3/20/2007 5:45:03 PM

I don't really like prong collars (or check chains or easy walking harnesses or gentle leaders...... [

]) so my answer will be coloured by that. But a few things do bother me about the situation.... here goes:

1 He sticks one on every dog that comes through the class... although its good that he is willing to try something different if you don't think its working for your dog. So maybe ask him to try a different technique or a different piece of equipment? Would you feel more comfortable using an easy walk harness or a head halter (like a gentle leader or halti) to help you control him?

2.Using the prong has already caused some set backs for you. It may not be the equpiment that is at fault here - maybe you are sending him confusing signals? Perhaps this is because ultimately you are not comfortable with the tool or method?

3. I also think that corrective devices (like prongs) and clicker training are at total opposite ends of the spectrum and I would be concerned that the former would interfere with the latter - especially if you use shaping techniques with the clicker. It doesn't always happen, but it is probable and it depends a lot on the dog/person relationship.... the fact that he's having set backs could be an indicator that it's likely in your case because there's something lacking in communication between you? So I would steer clear.

I would work on desensitising him to his triggers... the things that make him go nuts. If he isn't responding to the yummiest treats or his most favourite toy, then you are too close to the trigger. Work on keeping these triggers at as great a distance as you need to keep him calm and responsive so you can ask for "sit", "heel" or "watch me" and have him respond. Over time the distance he needs will gradually decrease.... As this happens be sure to use the best possible reward whenever you get a little closer to the trigger and use lower value rewards when the distance is great enough that he finds it easy peasy, working towards phasing them out coompletely.

Deb

Posted : 3/20/2007 6:11:02 PM

e clicker to remedy this behavior as before, but I just can't find anything more rewarding to him than getting to his goal. He isn't interested in treats, no matter how yummy, I could wave any toy right in front of his face, I could do kartwheels, it still would not get his attention. So I found another place that offered classes....I missed the first lesson but showed up to the doggie socialization hour the trainer runs, met him, seemed like a nice guy, didn't really ask too many questions about the class because it said online it stressed the importance of positive reinforcement.

Oh, sorry. I was skimming before and missed this part. Find a *good* clicker trainer.

It sounds like your dog wasn't paying attention to you because he is overstimulated. There are three things a good clicker trainer is going to tell you:

1. Progress is incremental. Build up to expecting your dog to pay attention to you on a walk outside is impossible if you don't work up gradually, starting indoors, then moving to your hallway or a deserted parking lot. Then setting up a situation with a "stranger" you know and rehearsing that scenario a number of times.

2. Your dog gets to choose the level of play. Period. Work within the comfort zone of the dog, and work gradually to push out the comfort zone. Your dog, from your limited description, sounds very sensitive, so start slow, with no distractions. Then add distractions or levels of intensity gradually.

3. Anything can be a reward. One of the best things my trainer taught me is that anything my dog wants can be used as a reward. If your dog wants to run up to people or things on a walk (I would go with things), practice sitting or asking for other behaviors *in exchange for a chance to go up to the thing*. Keep repeating it (in controlled settings at first, so that your dog is not too stimulated to understand what you want), and your dog will start offering the behaviors you want as defaults, in order to get what he wants.

Chuffy

Posted : 3/21/2007 9:52:36 AM

Anything can be a reward. One of the best things my trainer taught me is that anything my dog wants can be used as a reward. If your dog wants to run up to people or things on a walk (I would go with things), practice sitting or asking for other behaviors *in exchange for a chance to go up to the thing*. Keep repeating it (in controlled settings at first, so that your dog is not too stimulated to understand what you want), and your dog will start offering the behaviors you want as defaults, in order to get what he wants.

I've done this too, on our youngest dog, and it works really well - sometimes the dog gets a yummy treat, sometimes she just gets verbal praise or petting and sometimes she gets released to say hi as a reward... (is that "variable reinforcement" ?) I have a moment to ask the person "is it ok if she comes and says hi?" or "can they play for a minute?" and if it turns out they are ok with it and/or the dog is friendly I let her go to say hello.

My friend calls it "Hide and go See". She says "Hide!" to her dog when she sees something that normally makes the dog scared or excited. This started out as a trick.... something fun she did with a clicker and wanted to incorporate into a freestyle routine. The dog doesn't sit at heel and watch - she actually gets behind my friends legs and waits there.... my friend assesses the situation.... and if its OK then she says, "ok, Go See!" and the dog goes scampering off to investigate. At first she did use the desensitisation thing and a food reward to keep the dog in place as they got gradually closer to the other person/dog, but now she doesn't need the reward.... the reward of occasioanlly being allowed to "go see" seems to be enough. It's handy because if theres a loose dog she just has to turn to face it and her dog moves to keep behind her.... I haven't been able to do this with mine though, I think it's easier if you just have one. I have a feeling it is good for establishing trust and leadership too.... because you are physically placed between your dog and any supposed "threat"......

espencer

Posted : 3/21/2007 12:50:48 PM

I have always said that the technique is more important than the tool, you could use a 35 cents rope if you know the right technique, now, prongs are not bad at all and here is why:

I have here a link that explains that a regular flat collar could damage the dog's neck more than a prong or chain collar, this explanation was not made by a regular guy but by an engineer that explains what is happening at the mechanical level:

“When a dog is on a static collar and pulls, there will be a gap at the back of the neck between the collar and the dog's flesh. This means that all of his force is being distributed across the front of the neck. With a chain training collar there is no such gap. The force is distributed around the entire circumference of the dog's neck. Pressure is the measure of force over area (pounds per square inch). Equal force over a smaller area means greater pressure. Same force over a greater area means less pressure. The so-called choke collar actually puts LESS pressure on the dog's trachea because the force of the dog pulling is spread out rather than being isolated directly on the front of the neck.”

[linkhttp://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/What_collar.html]http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/What_collar.html[/link]

So as you can see you could be even helping the dog by getting a prong, if you dont like it then just change it, this is only to help you see that prong collars are not bad at all

Patricia Armstrong

Posted : 3/22/2007 12:01:09 AM

I had one dog that needed a prong collar to start with. He was just too strong, and stubborn and nothing else got his attention. I felt bad at first, but it never seemed to bother him and it did give me alot more control, especially in the beginning. I do think you will be able to transition to another collar later, also. Good luck.

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/22/2007 8:58:42 AM

there's nothing wrong with prong collars per se, but frankly that's a really outdated and not very effective method of teaching the auto sit. Giving collar corrections and pushing dogs into a sit? run from that class now. If your dog knows sit already, all you have to do is transfer the cue from a verbal sit to a body cue, you're footwork indicating you are about to stop. To transfer a cue you just give the new cue right before the old cue multiple times then stop giving the old cue. Dogs readily transfer cues.

Your real problem is you're just getting too close to the distracting things for your level of training. When proofing a behavior-- sounds like you need a "leave it" command-- you start out in completely non-distracting environment and gradually, oh so gradually, move to working in distracting environments. If you've gotten so close to a person that your dog won't pay any attention to you, training is impossible. Now you're in a management situation. Call your dog's name, turn, and march away. Once you're a little further away you can try to get your dog's attention and reward for that.

cc431

Posted : 3/25/2007 3:14:07 PM

ORIGINAL: seashell

The trainer for the class my dog just finished used prong collars, which I hated at first but NOTHING else had worked. I hated using the prong collar for awhile, however my dog doesn't seem to mind. In fact when I get out the prong collar she gets all excited about it and tries to lick my face. Obviously it isn't bothering her and I saw a lot of improvement with her during the classes. Plus the instructor explained how to transition from the prong to a flat collar in the future.

They also sell flat collars (leather) that are called 'force collars', same principle as the prong collars but much more appealing from a viewpoint of visual aesthetics. I doubt people would realize the dog was even wearing a force collar, looks just like a regular collar. I do not use these types of collars. I just have a regular flat nylon collar, a Hamilton collar I think they're called from Agway store. I have considered a purchase of the flat leather 'force', but no purchase as of yet. I have one of those 17' retractable leashes. Every time she gets to the end of the line, I can feel her bang it. I'm worried she may hurt herself around her neck. Usually I can control her with a sharp "whoa" command when she gets out about 15', but then she still likes to pull.
I hold my ground and stop, and she figures it out, but I still worry she may injury herself. I often wonder if the self-correcting
methodology behind these types of collars can actually be beneficial in the long run when it comes to stuff like neck/throat injury. I don't know. But I do know they are controversial in training/general use. I am almost willing to put out the money
to purchase (I think the leather flat goes for about $25) simply just to see if they really do self-correct.

If interested in a flat, I don't want to provide the link here in the forum, but I will send in a PM.

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/26/2007 9:00:55 AM

I have one of those 17' retractable leashes. Every time she gets to the end of the line, I can feel her bang it.

Do NOT ever attach a prong collar or "force collar" to a long line or retractable leash. When training a dog with these tools the dog needs to be a on a SHORT leash. Even six feet is too long.

If you want to teach your dog leash manners, throw your retractable leash away. Those things actively teach dogs to pull against the leash.

glenmar

Posted : 3/26/2007 9:33:35 AM

Nodding in agreement with mudpuppy.

Ixas_girl

Posted : 3/26/2007 11:40:52 AM

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Nodding in agreement with mudpuppy.

Me three.

Mic Foster

Posted : 3/27/2007 7:25:55 AM

Force collars are bad news. I would stick with the prong if you are going to use a corrective device...neither one should EVER be used with a retractable...honestly, if your dogs a puller throw the retractable in the garbage.