"Naturally Complete" from Purina's Dog Chow line ...

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo
I totally agree with you, but Beneful is expensive.  Iams, Purina Dog Chow, even Pedigree is the same price or less than Beneful and doesn't contain salt or sugar.

I will bow to superior knowledge on that - not living in the US I couldn't begin to tell you what any of those foods cost there, relatively speaking ( do have a rough idea).  That being said, because of my own situation I am very aware that different people are under different circumstances and have to deal with that on a daily basis.  For example - my other half drives, and will drive me anywhere (within reason) to buy Ben food or anything else he may need.  I can't drive because it is not medically safe for me to do so.  Therefore, I choose to feed Ben the best food I can find that also happens to be at the pet store within walking distance, because my SO travels frequently for work and I want to have ready access to Ben's food.  What I feed is in the top 3 of what is available here, but is perhaps not "the best"...none of them are great, the trend just hasn't hit here yet.  I could mail order the "best" one, but as it is kibble is TWICE as expensive here as it is in the US, shipping isn't free and our postal systems sucks, feeding Ben what he is on now is the best option for me.  And that decision came about after a lot of research on my part. 

I think it needs to be remembered that nobody is born with inherent knowledge about issues like this....we are all ALWAYS learning....in my experience, telling somebody they are flat-out-wrong about ANYTHING doesn't serve to change their minds....knowledge changes minds, but I think some of the gentle teaching and positive reinforcement we are all so keen on with our animals would be well suited aimed at people, too.  I have never pretended to be the world's most experienced dog owner...but as an experienced human, I know how I would prefer to learn and improve.

Kate

I don't think this is about trying to get one another to switch to food X, Y & Z or chastise people who don't feed them. We CAN keep it civil.
 
That being said. I stand by my word. I agree w/ sillysally, jennie_c_d, jojo the pogo. I would never feed my horse a diet based upon corn, why would I feed it to my carnivorous (mostly) canine?
 
Oh and just because it bothers me a little teeny bit, since A.) I'm young, so that obviously makes me a snot nosed little brat who's only been alive for "x" amount of years so I must know nothing and B.) Because I don't appreciate being patronized for trying to feed my animals, whose lives depend on me, the best diet possible. But guess what, my family has owned dogs since before I was born and they were fed what I wouldn't consider to be optimal food now, I think we've all been there. But because this is the 21st Century, It's OKAY to be a little open-minded and realize that there ARE better foods out there for your dog, whether they "look great" on kibbles and bits or not. Period.
 
Contrary to popular belief, if you do a little research, you'd find that raw feeding dogs isn't really a revolution. Aside from the fact that European dog breeders have been doing it for years and years and still actively do, what do you think people fed their dogs before "dog food" was invented?

Thanks for making that point, Glenda. As far as I can figure out, the only "premium" food I can get here that is available in America is Royal Canin, and the ingredients aren't even the same. People do the best they can with what they have, be that financial resources, availability, personal opinions or any of the other criteria that determine a choice in dog food, or anything else. I feed Ben the best food I can find...I can't see the point in beating myself up for not having choices when those choices are not governed by me in the first place.

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This was exactly my point about when new people come here and they get told that their brand of dog food is crappy and if they want healthy dogs they had to feed brands X, Y, Z.  I also pointed out that most here  do not do that--the ones that did it all the time no longer post here. Some of these poeple are made to feel they are not good dog owners for not feeding the best  somehow, someway.  And it is not always possible. 

And if you think about it, many countries do not have all these brands and i am sure those countries are not full of sick dogs dying at age 5 or 6 because of the lack of our top brand dog foods.    The foods in these countries apparently work for most of those dog there and will work for most of them here.

I just hate to see any one run off of this forum--where they can actually get a wealth of information on mnay topcis other than nutrition--because they are made to feel that are not proper dog owners....for whatever reason.

Hmmmm, cracks like "garbage in, garbage out" in response to Angels question about the gawd awful smell of the puppy poop from her litter.....cracks like Sandra is "of that generation" that is resistent to change. cracks like Lori doesn't love Willow or she wouldn't feed her the RX Science Diet that keeps her alive.....and how many times has AbbysDad been beaten bloody over what he feeds, CHALLENGED, people demanding to know what other things he tried and for how long he fed them, or Susan being practically run off the board because she works PART TIME marketing for Purina, yeah, we do a great job of keeping it civil.

Hmmmm, I don't see anyone on this thread doing that.  If everyone is allowed to have their opinion, than why are those that would rather NOT feed Purina critisized for sharing theirs?  I have never told anyone what they should feed, only why I wouldn't feed something. 
 
I have NEVER said that someone doesn't love their animal or is a bad owner for what they feed, and niether has Jojo, or anyone else on this thread.
 
I do not appreciate being told that I only believe what I do about dog food because I'm young and don't know any better, anymore than others like being told that they do what they do because of the generation that they are from. 

We are here on this forum to state our opinion and if you asked a question - you generally want to be educated. 
 
Well, we're educating. 
 
 

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

We are here on this forum to state our opinion and if you asked a question - you generally want to be educated. 

Well, we're educating. 
 
I'm sorry, but it all has to do with education.  Once you learn that Brand X has bad stuff in it, that cheaper brand Y doesn't - then you can't use the "can't afford excuse." 

YES you can use the can't afford excuse.  Have you ever been so broke you had to dig around in furniture and under your car seat in hopes of finding enough money to buy a loaf of bread?  Have you ever lived on a little chili with a lot of rice, or tuna sandwiches every night of the week because you could get that brand chili cheap and tuna cheap?  Have you ever gone to the union hall with your husband after he stood picket duty so you could get some milk and donuts or maybe a little home made soup?  Have you ever laid in bed at night sick as a  dog  wondering if that stupid strike was ever going to end and  you would have money to pay rent and utilities on time and not under the constant threat of having them cut off?  I was 21, pregnant, sick 24/7 unbale to work because of being so sick, threw up most of what I ate, and hubby's company had gone out on strike, much to our despair.  Luckily we did not have a dog at that time.  If we had, he would have probably eaten what we ate or the very cheapest dog food we could find.  Would you suggest that had we had a dog during those 4 months we should have given it away because we could NOT AFFORD to feed it the best?   If it had been you in those circumstances, would you still have used what tad of money you had to feed your dog the best and meanwhile you go hungry?  I think not.
 
I know of families that feed their dogs ol Roy, etc and they love their dogs every bit as much as any of us love our dogs.  And their dogs are very much loved,  get lots of attention, have a nice warm place in the winter, most at least get their vax and heartworm preventatives.  And in most cases these families do good to buy the food and give what medical care they do give to their beloved pets and they can not afford more expensive food.
 
I have never put down anyone else dog food regardless of brand.  But I have seen Purina, Science Diet and few others--like what Ron2 feeds his dogs, totally trashed.  Giving your opinion is one thing as to why you feed your dog is one thing, but telling someone their dog food is garbage is something else.    I am not sure if it was on this forum or another someone posted that anybody could find a way to feed their dog the best even if they had to order it.  Well, when you have to pay 6 times the price of dog food to have it shipped, most can not afford to have that done.  I have been here since Oct. '03 and somehow my posts lost about 2000 and I noticed a few others did as well.  But the thing is, I would not post in this topic for ages because of the rude, bashing remarks I saw...thank goodness, I do not  see such remarks anymore. 
 
Also, I don't care how young or how old you are, you never know everything.  And I gotta admit when I was 25 i thought i knew a lot more than i actually did---I learned THAT  with time and experience. 

Yes, I have.  I put myself through college while paying for my living and everything else. 

Further you missed the point.  Beneful is more expensive than Pedigree, but Pedigree doesn't contain the sugar, salt, and artificial food colorings Benful is contains.  So in this case, the person buying Beneful or Kibbles and Bits is wasting their money.

I have not and would not scrutinize anyone for feeding Pedigree or Dog Chow.  But food with sugar and salt is diabetes and heart failure in a bag.

We're built to eat raw foods, like all animals.

 
 Jennie;  I read about a study in which the ability of people to digest raw egg was compared to thier abilty to digest cooked egg; they digested the cooked egg better. Have you ever eaten a raw vegetable and then had a stomach ache; raw potatoes are a good example; some vegetables are easier to digest when they're cooked IMO.

Here is what a Certified Veterinary Nutritionist says about enzymes.
 








Question

I have read on another website that sells a raw organic meat diet that cooked food lacks digestive enzymes that raw food provides. How could this be true ????

Answer

It depends which "enzymes" – yes food does contain enzymes but not ones needed by the pet.
Cook food does not need to contain the enzymes necessary for digestion. The animal has all the enzymes needed to digested food sufficiently to obtain the needed nutrients.
A basic review of physiology is needed. The dog pancreas has been reported to contain 70x the enzymes needed to digest a meal of protein and fat. There is disaccharidase activity in the small intestine to digest grains.
In only one medical condition, is enzymes addition needed – Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency (PEI), which is easily documented by a TLI blood test. The medical condition is one of the easiest to diagnosis and treat, and in these cases, more than 90% of pancreas has to be destroyed before clinical signs of increased appetite, poor stool quality and weight loss are seen. The reserve capacity of pancreas, liver and small bowel to digest food is tremendous!
Given the normal dog digests over 90% of it#%92s food (except high fiber diets) – what more could you want? Why is there a need for more enzymes (unless you had a product to sell)? Some fecal production is necessary – 100% digestion is not healthy on a long-term basis.
True foods do contain enzymes – BUT these are not the ones needed by the pet to digest its meal. Enzymes work at very specific temp, pH, osmolarity, substrates and concentrations. A plant enzyme would have great difficulty operating properly within the mammalian small bowel – a totally foreign environment for which it was designed. And why would a food contain the enzymes to digest itself? No evolutionary advantage there.

Supplements and diets for sell are said to contain so-called “digestive enzymes lacking in the dog”, if you look closely, those enzymes are ones needed to digest plant material such as cellulases and ligin. Even if the digestion did take place in the small bowel, the pet is incapable of utilizing the end products of this exogenous digestion - the difference between an alpha vs. beta glucose linkage for example.
So what#%92s the point of adding 'enzymes' to your pet's diet - nothing more than moving $$$ from your wallet into theirs.

 

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

YES you can use the can't afford excuse.  Have you ever been so broke you had to dig around in furniture and under your car seat in hopes of finding enough money to buy a loaf of bread?  Have you ever lived on a little chili with a lot of rice, or tuna sandwiches every night of the week because you could get that brand chili cheap and tuna cheap?  Have you ever gone to the union hall with your husband after he stood picket duty so you could get some milk and donuts or maybe a little home made soup?  Have you ever laid in bed at night sick as a  dog  wondering if that stupid strike was ever going to end and  you would have money to pay rent and utilities on time and not under the constant threat of having them cut off?  I was 21, pregnant, sick 24/7 unbale to work because of being so sick, threw up most of what I ate, and hubby's company had gone out on strike, much to our despair.  Luckily we did not have a dog at that time.  If we had, he would have probably eaten what we ate or the very cheapest dog food we could find.  Would you suggest that had we had a dog during those 4 months we should have given it away because we could NOT AFFORD to feed it the best?   If it had been you in those circumstances, would you still have used what tad of money you had to feed your dog the best and meanwhile you go hungry?  I think not.

I know of families that feed their dogs ol Roy, etc and they love their dogs every bit as much as any of us love our dogs.  And their dogs are very much loved,  get lots of attention, have a nice warm place in the winter, most at least get their vax and heartworm preventatives.  And in most cases these families do good to buy the food and give what medical care they do give to their beloved pets and they can not afford more expensive food.

I have never put down anyone else dog food regardless of brand.  But I have seen Purina, Science Diet and few others--like what Ron2 feeds his dogs, totally trashed.  Giving your opinion is one thing as to why you feed your dog is one thing, but telling someone their dog food is garbage is something else.    I am not sure if it was on this forum or another someone posted that anybody could find a way to feed their dog the best even if they had to order it.  Well, when you have to pay 6 times the price of dog food to have it shipped, most can not afford to have that done.  I have been here since Oct. '03 and somehow my posts lost about 2000 and I noticed a few others did as well.  But the thing is, I would not post in this topic for ages because of the rude, bashing remarks I saw...thank goodness, I do not  see such remarks anymore. 

Also, I don't care how young or how old you are, you never know everything.  And I gotta admit when I was 25 i thought i knew a lot more than i actually did---I learned THAT  with time and experience. 

 
I never attacked anyone for feeding a certain food, but if you are entitled to your opinion, so are others.  If I fed my dog just about any food made by Purina or Pedigree, she would be a mess--she is allergic to wheat.  If it would make you feel better, I could tell you why I don't feed RAW, why I am not currently rotate between brands, why I do not homecook,or why I do not feed some preium foods.  It has nothing to do with whether I think that I am better or smarter than others, it has to do with what I think is best for MY dog and what works in MY home.  I thought that was what you were advocating all along. 
 
 

Jennie; I read about a study in which the ability of people to digest raw egg was compared to thier abilty to digest cooked egg; they digested the cooked egg better. Have you ever eaten a raw vegetable and then had a stomach ache; raw potatoes are a good example; some vegetables are easier to digest when they're cooked IMO.

The point is that we were MADE to eat raw foods. I don't think foods are what they're supposed to be (mass production and factory farming have pretty horrific effects on meat AND vegetables, depleting them of large quantities of vitamins and minerals), and I think that we eat things that we naturally wouldn't. Mass quantities of grains are a good example, for anybody. Grains don't grow in huge feilds, naturally....

But, no, raw potato doesn't make my stomach hurt. Dairy products, on the other hand, can double me over for days.

Here is what a Certified Veterinary Nutritionist says about enzymes.

What nutritionist, where? Who do they work for?

I've seen lots of articles that said the exact opposite, but nutrition is controversial.

Then  you should certainly understand some people can not afford to feed the better brand no matter what they learn about the food they are feeding. When you do not have enough to eat yourself, can only eat what amounts to junk, can't afford a phone, worried about utilities getting cut off every day,  you do the best you can by your dogs and cats.  I know the above  is extreme, but many people barely get by as it is and no way can they feed premium dog food to their dogs while they are living on beans and tortillas  with meat every other day, or beans and rice and cornbread 5 days of the week.  It doesn't make any difference what they know about the food, it what they can afford.
 
By the way, my one DIL also worked her way thru college,  lived in a drafty shack, worked part time in a deli shop (where she could get some free food) and part time in a shoe store---- and fed her dog ol Roy and sometimes scraps from the deli sandwich place where she worked.  Were you able to feed your dog top of the line while in college?  By the way, she majored in business and at less than 6 years out of college is the assistant manager of  a Dillards Department store.   The last line has nothing to do with dog food, just a little brag on the girl.