"Naturally Complete" from Purina's Dog Chow line ...

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d
and I think that we eat things that we naturally wouldn't. Mass quantities of grains are a good example, for anybody. Grains don't grow in huge feilds, naturally....

Well, grains have been around for at least 10,000 years in the farming sense. Some people don't do well with grains, others do. I know that I'm in the best shape when I take in massive amounts of whole grains; something I haven't been doing the past year or two. [sm=lame.gif]

Darn,,,I can't believe these conversations always turn to this. I just started reading from the beginning,,,and it all started so good...with a few of us deciding that at least Purina is heading in the right direction..and it ends up with a lot of people saying a lot of uncalled for things.  Once again, a lot of people are just going to believe what they want to and knock everyone else that doesn't agree.  Glenda,,,keep up the good work of referee!
On a different note,,, way back on the first page of this thread it was said that someones dog was turning red because of beet pulp?????????  Don't believe I ever heard that one before...but here is what beet pulp is according to the Great Dane Lady,,,Linda Arndt:    It is important to clarify that beet pulp has no color, has no flavor and has no sugar left in it when it is used for fiber. It clear, hair like structures and it does not turn a coat red and it has no nutritional value other than a stool firmer and a valuable food source for the viable bacteria of the gut.

You are right, the whole thing is to feed your dog what is BEST for him, be it purina, Science Diet, TO, ol Roy, EP, whatever.  But it also has to be taken into consideration, what is available and what you can afford.  Simply put, do not think you HAVE to feed your dog EP because it works for X's dog, or TO because it works for Y's dog, or Nutro because it wors for Z's dog or Purina because it works for my dog. 
 
I do not feed raw bedcause in the first place I can't eat meat that isn't fully cooked.  Second you read one report that says it is perfectly safe and great idea, then you read another that says it isn't as safe as most think.  So, I just go with my own thoughts on that--the thought of eating raw meat turns my stomache and I just can't bring myself to give it to my dogs.  My husband on the other hand could probably do it because he doesn't like meat well done.
 
Actually when one nutritionist says this and another says something else and a thrid disagrees with both, when one expert says this, another says that and a thrid says they are both wrong, well, I am just going to go by how my dogs look and act, their physicals, etc One person is going to agree with one nutritionist/expert and another says they are totally wrong, go with this nutritionist/expert.  I have seen this a number of times on this baord, even down to saying "I don't care what X says, Y says such and such and he knows more."  This is in everything.  I have seen some praise that Milan guy and others say he is mean and cruel and doesn't know what he is doing.  (personally I have never seen his show nor read his book) Nobody is ever going to agree on everything. 
 
I  have never fed Beneful, never read the ingredients.  But I saw someone compare it to (I think) coke and candy and someone else compared it to pizza.  Two entirely different foods.  I think you could live much better and longer on pizza than on coke and candy but not forever on either one.  I have also seen there is disagreement on cooked and raw veggies. 
 
I just don't want to see new people scared off because they can't find/afford what some feel is the only foods to feed.
 

ORIGINAL: dyan

Darn,,,I can't believe these conversations always turn to this. I just started reading from the beginning,,,and it all started so good...with a few of us deciding that at least Purina is heading in the right direction..and it ends up with a lot of people saying a lot of uncalled for things.  Once again, a lot of people are just going to believe what they want to and knock everyone else that doesn't agree.  Glenda,,,keep up the good work of referee!
On a different note,,, way back on the first page of this thread it was said that someones dog was turning red because of beet pulp?????????  Don't believe I ever heard that one before...but here is what beet pulp is according to the Great Dane Lady,,,Linda Arndt:    It is important to clarify that beet pulp has no color, has no flavor and has no sugar left in it when it is used for fiber. It clear, hair like structures and it does not turn a coat red and it has no nutritional value other than a stool firmer and a valuable food source for the viable bacteria of the gut.

No kidding.  I didn't think this simple topic would lead to what it has. 

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

You are right, the whole thing is to feed your dog what is BEST for him, be it purina, Science Diet, TO, ol Roy, EP, whatever.  But it also has to be taken into consideration, what is available and what you can afford.  Simply put, do not think you HAVE to feed your dog EP because it works for X's dog, or TO because it works for Y's dog, or Nutro because it wors for Z's dog or Purina because it works for my dog. 

I do not feed raw bedcause in the first place I can't eat meat that isn't fully cooked.  Second you read one report that says it is perfectly safe and great idea, then you read another that says it isn't as safe as most think.  So, I just go with my own thoughts on that--the thought of eating raw meat turns my stomache and I just can't bring myself to give it to my dogs.  My husband on the other hand could probably do it because he doesn't like meat well done.

Actually when one nutritionist says this and another says something else and a thrid disagrees with both, when one expert says this, another says that and a thrid says they are both wrong, well, I am just going to go by how my dogs look and act, their physicals, etc One person is going to agree with one nutritionist/expert and another says they are totally wrong, go with this nutritionist/expert.  I have seen this a number of times on this baord, even down to saying "I don't care what X says, Y says such and such and he knows more."  This is in everything.  I have seen some praise that Milan guy and others say he is mean and cruel and doesn't know what he is doing.  (personally I have never seen his show nor read his book) Nobody is ever going to agree on everything. 

I  have never fed Beneful, never read the ingredients.  But I saw someone compare it to (I think) coke and candy and someone else compared it to pizza.  Two entirely different foods.  I think you could live much better and longer on pizza than on coke and candy but not forever on either one.  I have also seen there is disagreement on cooked and raw veggies. 

I just don't want to see new people scared off because they can't find/afford what some feel is the only foods to feed.

Sandra, I agree with you 100%!  Thanks!

Dyan, I wondered the same thing about a dog turning red.  My oldest son should be as red as the red on the Reply To Message strip above.  That boy LOVES beets, pickled, Harbard, or plain cooked in tossed salads.  I had beets of sone sort of another almost every night.
 
I do believe that was actually posted as a "what should not be in dog food" list that was copied from somewhere.  If you are not suppose to use beet pulp because it can turn your dog red (surely this is a joke), then it makes you wonder about the reasons for not having the other ingredients in there.

Well, about the beet pulp thing, there are a few people on my chow board who do believe that the beet pulp has discolored their chows coats.  Not turned it red per se, but discolored it some.

What nutritionist, where? Who do they work for?

 
 I think the material abbysdad posted is from petdiets.com; they have certified nutritionisits you can consult with. It's a shame you're lactose intolerant; guess that means you can't eat ice cream.

On a happier note:

The Animal Shelter Fund

Nestlé Purina will donate 3% of pretax earnings of all purchases of specially marked Naturally Complete from Purina® Dog Chow® brand dog food between 6/30/06 and 12/31/07, minimum donation of $200,000, to homeless pets.

http://www.petsforpeople.com/Other.aspx

I could probably survive without meat as I do really enjoy salads, veggies and fruit.  True, i do enjoy a hambuger, a chili dog from time to time, a nice t-bone or rib eye steak (well done, naturally), chili, veggie beef soup with lots more veggies than beef, chicken gizzards.  But it is no big deal to me.  I would just as soon have a pot of  pinto beans, mashed potaotes, corn, tossed salad and corn bread as a steak.  AND I learned  that dried beans have the same food value as meat.  However, I do put salt pork in my pinto beans, ham and ham hock in my lima beas, or butter beans as we call them down here.  Also use salt pork or bacon in black eyes peas.  So even when i am "meatless' so to say, i am still cooking with it.
 
But I  would be hard pressed to give up milk, ice cream, whipped cream, cream cheese (for many things), cottage cheese, regular cheeses, etc and bread.  i want my biscuits, cornbread, toast, sweet rolls, etc.  All I learned in nutrition told me that dairy and grains were a very necessary part of the diet (unless you are allergic to them) and so were meats, tho dried legumes could replace meats. 
 
I have not really studied up on nutrition since back in the arly 60's and things could well have changed (I still go by what I was taught) as things do tend to change.  At one time people were taught the world was flat and they would fall if if they went to far.  At one time doctors were taught to "bleed" someone to let the bad blood out to cure them.  It killed more than it cured.  At one time  many people believed certain folks turned into werewolves on the night of full moon.  And not so long ago women were killed for being "witches".  Times, ideas, beliefs change.  When i was pregnant, ladies were told to put on 20-25 pounds, but not long after, ladies were told 10-12 pounds.  Last I heard it was back up to about 20 pounds. Not long ago all we heard was how bad eggs were for us, don't eat more than a couple of week, etc, but now we hear that hey, they aren't so bad for us after all.  So things, beliefs change and what is "true" today maybe not be so "true" tomorrow.

On thing I want to comment on is the "affordable" issue. While some "supermarket" feed can be cheaper, they may actually cost more in the long run. For example, I feed my dogs Innova Evo. I pay $42 for a 28lb bag. I feed a total of 4.5 cups a day for 3 dogs A 37.5lb bag of Purina Dog Chow costs $17. I would have to feed over 7 cups.  A 35lb bag of Beneful costs $25. I would have to feed over 9 cups. A 44lb bag of Pedigree costs $19. I would have to feed over 13 cups. As you can see, I would be feeding more which means I'd run out of food faster and would have to spend more in the long run. Just a little something to keep in mind. []

I have 3 large dogs, golden retrievers, known to be chow hounds.  They each  only get about 2 3/4 cups plus the meat and veggies i give them at night--which i would be giving regardless of what food they eat.  They are all in the 70 to 80 pound range.  They eat no where the amount listed on the bags.  Most of the time KayCee and Buck leave a little, mabye 1/4 cup of their breakfast klibble and i pick it up so honey, the real chow hound, doesn't get it.  Then at night i add 1/2 to 3/4 cup of the kibble and the meat or fish and veggies.  Bowls are cleaned then. 

ORIGINAL: sillysally

. 

I do not appreciate being told that I only believe what I do about dog food because I'm young and don't know any better, anymore than others like being told that they do what they do because of the generation that they are from. 

 
Well, I'm old and I feed Innova, so that arguement wouldn't hold much weight would it?  My mind actually started to open to the "evils" in dog food when I want back to college to earn my degree...at a ripe old age....and one of my profs, who was even older than me, spent the bulk of one class going on and on about the different ways of disguising CORN as the main ingredient in dog food.  She started me thinking and idog finished the job.  But NO ONE back then was rude about helping me to learn.  Idog was way smaller then and the folks who talked nutrition were the ones who were really educated about it.
 
NOW, and for the last year or so, anytime food comes up folks think it's ok to make rude comments.  Maybe I've even been guilty of that.  But I try to remember how others helped ME to learn and it wasn't by beating me over the head with my "wrong" choices.
 
My dogs START with a blood panal when they are altered.  NOT the pre-op blood work, but a FULL blood panel.  Thor just had his repeated because he's almost 4.  So I know that what I'm feeding is working for him.  And, I agree with Sandra, if the food is total crap and "it doesn't show up for years and years" then it's not gonna show up if an excellent food is being used either.  And SOMETHING would show up, such as skin, coat, nail, or whatever problems.  If an animal is NOT being properly nourished, something is gonna show up along the way, and not wait until the animal is older.  The possible exception to that would be some of the preservatives that *can* be cancer causing agents.....but how do we know even with that?  We take our dogs in and have them vaccinated year after year after year.....and that too has been shown to cause cancers.
 
When Molly went to Mary, I wasn't thrilled with what Mary feeds.  But for Mary to get Innova requires a LONG drive on New England roads.  I know what those roads can be like and I know that something less than Innova isn't likely to kill her...and I look at the pictures Mary posts of that beautiful girl and I have to say, she's doing well, regardless of the food that I think is less than perfect.  This is one well loved and spoiled girl..  I'm sure not gonna go "repo" Molly because I am not thrilled with what Mary feeds her.  And no, it sure isn't Beneful.  But the point is, just because I believe that Innova is the best for "my" dogs, doesn't mean that they won't do just as well on something else, and Molly is proving that to be the case.  So, maybe I'm not right that Innova is the ONLY thing they should be fed......availability is a huge factor and I'd rather Mary feed something I don't like much than have her risk her life to buy Innova, and sometimes that's exactly what she'd be doing. You can't always plan around New England winters.
 
And even tho Innova might last a heck of a lot longer than Beneful, well, coming up with that HUGE amount of cash for the bag of Innova might be a little tough for some folks.  Maybe it's easier for them to spend $20 every two weeks than $40 once a month?  Even tho it comes out the same cost in the end, affordability IS a factor.  And when we bash someone who lives in another country and earns minimum wage because she feeds Beneful, well, that's just wrong. I believe that the kinder gentler comments are what have led this gal to try something better, and more expensive, for her dog.  It's still not "top shelf" but its the very BEST thats available in the country she lives in.  WE as a group have no right to make her feel that she's a less than good owner for what she can find to feed her dog.  And there is ONE particular person who will do their dangest to do just that.
 
I really hate to see these threads even get started because sooner or later there will be unkind comments that aren't in general type comments, but direct hits on someone who feeds "lesser" foods than we do, and that doesn't help them to learn.  It most likely makes them dig in their heels.

hmm could that be me? lol, if it is thanks, if its not thank you anyway. I really dont let comments get to me because Yes I do earn minimum wage and live in Puerto Rico so I know how much $$ I have available to me.
 
Let me tell members something: Puerto Rico is awsome to visit, we have some of the most beautiful beaches, the best hangouts, beer is cheap people are friendly. BUT its is major crappy to actually live here. Even though I was born here I have only lived here for about 3 years and If I can convince DH to take a plane back to Rochester New York you can bet that I will.
 
But hey, just because I get paid 5.15 an hour does not mean that I am not willing to spend $$$ on Lizzie if the need arises for her to be taken to the vet for something big. I have to make sacrifices to feed my kid as well as my pup but I dont really mind

That is the big thing as you mentioned Lizzie,, we not only have to feed our dogs, their veterinarian care is very expensive now a-days. No one gets away walking out of the vet clinic without spending a lot of money.
 
When I was younger and had two dogs,,I fed them grocery store food..and I'm sorry it is cheaper. I know what Meilani is saying about comparing, BUT grocery stores run sales on a regular basis...AND the companies put coupons in the newspaper on a regular basis. So if you play your cards right,, (which I did back then) you can use your coupons and purchase your dogs food while its on sale.  Some of us had to do that,,,some of still do.  And when you do, the difference in feeding your dog is great.  When you are feeding 2 dogs and 2 kids and DH and yourself on one paycheck, you do what you can do best. THAT is the bottom line. We have no right to tell others that they are wrong to feed their dog what is available or what they can afford.  Sure we can educate...but some of us here are NOT educating,, they are badgering.
 
Willow, about the red coat from beet pulp, I honestly never ever heard of that until reading this on this thread,, but as far as a dogs coat turning red, Ollies did that at the start of his problems years ago. He was shiny black but when he got sick after getting his vaccinations...his fur turned dull and redish after..looking terrible. He was eating different foods back then. But we put him on EP which he eats to this day and he is shiny black for years now.  I never once thought that he turned redish from his food,,but rather from his illness.