Abady Response To The Critics

ORIGINAL: cc431

ORIGINAL: glenmar  Thank you Bob. That's what I wanted to say, but I get accused of being the thought police and hating Abady.

The thought police, Glenda it is perfect!  Sorry it all happened to be honest with you, but it's water under the bridge. 

I can understand people being concerned about ingredients and very weary of trying a food in this manner.  However, the Dog Food Project thing is no big deal IMO.  Abady may just figure another website possibly trying to make a buck, so why bother?  He doesn't care I don't think whether people don't opt to try his feed simply because he doesn't post his ingredients for the web.  Keep in mind; us folks and those in other similar groups represent only a very small segment of the dog food-buying world.  I think well over 90% of folks sorry to say simply grab off the shelf from a supermarket or discount store like Wal-Mart with absolutely no regards to ingredients whatsoever.  Abady does put out several articles about their research, more so than most other companies, no?  From those articles one can get a good feel for what's in the product.  You know going in they talk about the necessities of by-products in a successful diet and the reasons why.  If that doesn't scare you off starters and make you run for cover, then there is a chance you will read on further and discover the company makes in policy to avoid gluten source proteins.  They discuss the avoidance of fibers and the reasons why.  I think one does get a good feel for what they are getting into when starting with Abady.  This is not simply just another feed; this is more like a health maintenance system.  Results are what matters, not an ingredients list posted on the web.

I bet the snake oil saleman back in the day, wouldn't have  liked  having the ingredients in their products made public to their customers  either.  They probably felt that the public should take their word as to the value of their products just as Abady does, and informing their customers about what is really in the product is unnecessary. What amazes me is the fact that people will actually buy this overpriced food , having no idea what is in it. [&:]

How many of us would be willing to go into a supermarket and see packages of food in the freezer, with claims on the package that this food will make you really healthy?   The price of this new  product  is many times what the other foods in the supermarket are, and the ingredient label  on the food is blacked out........

Results are what matters, not an ingredients list posted on the web.

Yes, but before I spend whatever on a package of food, I want to see what's in it, because I know what's best for my working dogs based on ten years of experience with them, not Mr. Abady. For instance, corn works far, far better for them (most of them), than white rice (surprise!). And white rice has the same issues with affecting the TDN that I was raising before, as it is a very high energy grain. I don't like foods with a lot of potato for the same reason, under normal circumstances. I didn't realize rice was even on the table. Because, you know, no one really knows the ingredients?

My point is that you can't go around poking fun of other feeds for being "not designed for carnivores" because they have blueberries, when THIS feed still has rice in it. If you want to get picky on that point, then my friend who feeds prey model is the only one doing it right. Her dogs eat animals. Period. That's a carnivorous diet.

Ben's got zillions of life threatening allergies. There's no way I'd take Abady's word for it that he'd be OK on this food just because he says so. You want a list? Just nod if you hear anything familar, that might be in this food. Chicken, eggs, all grain (including rice), flaxseed, tomatoes, heat processed venison, heat processed beef, any fat from those sources which might contain those proteins (including unspecified vegetable oil or animal fat).

That's the short list. There's many more but we haven't bothered with much of the list years just because I make sure everything that goes into him is safe - I don't take chances any more. I feed him what I know is safe and that's it. You see where trust comes into this?

I asked Natural Balance a million questions about the processing of their allergy foods, because one of their foods is venison which he IS allergic to, and they were quick in their responses and very forthcoming about their setup. I can walk through the mill where my other dogs' food is produced, inspect the grain myself (well, kind of), talk about their meat sources.

Trust and openness are really important to me and beyond the price and suitability of the food, it's why the Abady company would not work for me unless things really changed.

Just a thought after coming from the thread on the suture in the dog food.  It was mentioned there that when we were having all those recalls, TWO would not reveal who made their foods, why not?  What were they hiding?  Als said there was nothing organic in it, wo why the name.  I do not know enough about it  to say one way or the other BUT
 
Made me think--people here who had enough faith in them didn't think anything of it, continued using it anywayApparently they didn't wonder why TWO would no say how made their food.  I remember there were things said like dog food companies trie to steal recipes, ways of processing, etc from others and it was likely TWO was protecting it's recipes, ec.  Most didn't think a think in the world about that.  didn't worry if the TWO was being made in one of the plants that had recalled food, was made in a rat hole somewhere they didn't want folks to know about, etc.  Or maybe folks would find out their food was not what they said it was .
 
i have never used TWO or this Abady and don't plan to ever use either.  And i surely wouldn't buy a food that didn't list what was in it on the bag/box.  i don't know if Abady does or not.  if so, then it isn't a secret, just not advertised on the web.  if he doesn't I would certainly wonder why.
 
However, the point is, users of TWO stood up for it when the company  would not tell who or where their food was made, and apparently users of Abady stand up for it even when they won't post ingredient list on the web. 
 
Also, as i said before, during the recall we found out that companies that claimed all their ingredients were home grown were not tell the truth.  Ohters didn't list ingredients like corn gluten.  Two and maybe one other would not tell where their food was made, and by whom.  Therefore, i don't think any one company can be completely trusted.  I say feed your dog what works best for him and if it is Abady,s. TWO, Wellness, Iams, Purina, or even Ole Roy, that is what you should feed your dog.  Memevers here can not see your dog, inspect him, see your vet reports, etc, only you can.  And if everything is great, you are feedin wha works best for you dog.

nature's variety raw diets, 95% meat content;  in dehydrated form contain around 40% protein and 25% fat. They are around 6% carbohydrate, presumably from the few veggies in it, and run around 200 calories per ounce; guessing wildly, cause I don't have any on hand to actually measure, if you shredded them up you could probably get six to eight into a cup, 1200 calories per cup?
 
If abady is only at 30% protein it must have considerable non-meat content.

Aren't the Abady ingredients printed on the bag?

ORIGINAL: cc431

You are a keen observer and yes I am very surprised someone even noticed or would take the time to find a thread possibly 30 pages deep! Thanks! Yes, of course I will help you with that info. I'll PM you those links privately in the near future.

LOL! I wouldn't put that much time into it, the search function is much more efficient.

Thank you for sending me that info.

Ok, at cc431#%92s request, I#%92m not going to repost the links he sent me, but with his permission I am going to post the information contained in the links:

(I used text recognition software on the pictures; sorry for any odd characters it came up with)

This is the one he said ran about $63/40 lbs.

Classic Granular ingredients
Chicken By·Products Meal (Highest Quality), White Rice
Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Lard (the finest rand·
based source of the longesl chain Omega 3 and Omega 6 fa~
acids), Sunflower Oil (Premium Grade Non-genetically
Engineered Variety), Beef Fat, Dicalcium Phosphate, Beef Meat
and Bone Meal, Potassium Chloride, Undefatted Beef Liver,
Flaxseed Oil (Organic), Whey Protein Concentrate, Choline
Chloride, Natural Flavor, Menhaden Fish Oil, Ferrous Sulfate, d·
Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (Source of natural Vitamin E),
Magnesium Oxide, linc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C),
Vitamin A Acetate, Taurine, Niacinamide, d·Calcium
Pantothenate, Inositol. Citrus Bioflavanoid Complex,
Ergocalciferol (Vitamin 03), Manganese Sulfate, Riboflavin,
Potassium Iodide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite (Vitamin K),
Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, CuprIC
Oxide, Chromium GTF, Sodium Selenite. FolIC Acid, Btobn.
Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Vitamin B·,.)

Feeding Schedule for Adult Dogs Kennelled Indoors With outdoor Exercise
5 lbs 1/3 cup
10 lbs ½ cup
20 lbs 6/7 cup
30 lbs 1 1/5 cups
40 lbs 1 ½ cups
50 lbs 1 5/7 cups
60 lbs 2 cups
70 lbs 2 1/5 cups
85 lbs 2 4/7 cups
100 lbs 3 cups
115 lbs 3 ½ cups
140 lbs 4 ¼ cups

Classic Granular GA
Crude Protein Not less than 30
Crude Fat Not less than 28
Crude Fiber Not more than 2.234
Moisture Not more than 5.98
Linoleic Acid Not less than 5
Calcium MIn. 2.40 Max 2.6
Phos horous Min. 1.20 Max 1.8

Calories per pound 2143.7

Once again, sorry for the funky text recognition:

This is the Abady Formula for Maintenance & Stress (not the State of the Art):

Waggin Tails has this one for $84.99/35 lbs.

Chicken Meal. *White Rice. Menhaden Fish Meal
(Select Grade). Lard (lhe finest land-based source of
the longest chaIn Omega 3 and Omega 6 latty aCids).
Sunflower 0il (the finest health food grade. non-genetically
eng,neered variety). Beef Meal & Bone Meal.
Chicken By-Products Meal (Highest Quality). Beef Fat,
Dicalcium Phosphate. PotaSSIum Chloride. Unfatted
Beef liver (human grade). Flaxseed oil (organic). Salt
(Sodium Chloride). Natutal Flavor. Menhaden FISh Fat, dAlpha
Tocophery1 Acetate (source of natural Vitamin E).
Ferrous SUlfate. Amu10 Aod Supplement Magneslum
OlOl1e. Ascorbic Aod (Vitatmn C). Zinc OxIde. VitarrWl A
Acetate. 1nr')$lIOI. d-Caloum Panto!henale, NlaCll'IarrllCle.
Manganese Sulfate. Cholecalcdetol (Vitam., DJl. Citrus
Ellollavan()l,J Complex, Stomach Substance, CuprIC
OXide. Rlboliavin. Potassium Iodide. Thiamine
Hydrochloride. Menadione Sodium Bisulfate (Vitamin Kl.
Cobalt Chloride. Sodium selenite. Folic Acid. 810M.
Cyanocobalamin Concentrate (Vitamin B )

*White rice is superior to brown rice for dogs. Brown rice contains
gluten which can permanently damage the dog#%92s ability to absorb nutrients.

Maintenance & Stress Feeding Guidelines for Dogs Maintained Indoors and exercised Outdoors
5 lbs 1/3 cup
10 lbs ½ cup
20 lbs 1 cup
30 lbs 1 1/6 cups
40 lbs 1 3/7cups
50 lbs 1 5/7 cups
60 lbs 2 cups
70 lbs 2 1/6 cups
85 lbs 2 4/7 cups
100 lbs 3 cups
115 lbs 3 ½ cups
140 lbs 4 ¼ cups

Maintenance & Stress GA
Crude Protein Not less than 32.4
Crude Fat Not less than 28.9
Crude Fiber Not more than 1 (non-expandable variety)
Moisture Not more than 5.6
Linoleic Acid Not less than 5
Calcium MIn. 2.25 Max 2.6
Phos horous Min. 1.8 Max 2.4

Calories per pound 2166.15

This appears tp be a much better food at alot less cost and you can read the ingredients on the Internet.  No byproducts, and no Menadione...

[linkhttp://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485]http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485[/link]

http://forums.dogfoodproject.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=dogfood&Number=15024&Searchpage=1&Main=15024&Words=evo&topic=&Search=true#Post15024

TWO Lamb, Barley, Apple = 3920 kcal/kg
Abady Maint = 9820 kcal/kg

Recall that I'm not a math person and may have screwed up the conversions. That seems kind of high, though still nowhere near the mark of needing to be ten times as efficient to be worth it financially. []

Canidae ALS Feeding Recommendations 25-50 lb Adult w/exercise, 1-2 cups

50 lb Adult on either Abady formula - 1 5/7 cups

Canidae = $29.99/40 lbs

Hardly seems worth it for the Abady...

So Kelly, do you think the Abady information is supposed to say kcals? That would bring it in line with the above feeding recs.

Kelly, just looking at the ingredient list's for these foods, I can see where a potential problem would occur if these ingredients we listed publically.

First of all, there are quality statements in that list and that is illegal according to the AAFCO standards. The manufacture is NOT suppose to list an ingredient this way. It's only suppose to list it by name. Also, there may be some ingredients on there that may not be approved for pet foods (but I'm not sure on that one) as I haven't reviewed the list of approved foods in a long time.

[linkhttp://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/Public/COMPLETE_INSPECTORS_MANUAL.pdf]AAFCO[/link]

 [align=left]The name of each ingredient must be shown in letters or type of the same size.[align=left]No reference to quality or grade of an ingredient shall appear in the ingredient statement of afeed.
 

 
Edited to change wording.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

nature's variety raw diets, 95% meat content;  in dehydrated form contain around 40% protein and 25% fat. They are around 6% carbohydrate, presumably from the few veggies in it, and run around 200 calories per ounce; guessing wildly, cause I don't have any on hand to actually measure, if you shredded them up you could probably get six to eight into a cup, 1200 calories per cup?

If abady is only at 30% protein it must have considerable non-meat content.

I investigated your above diet.  Sounds impressive but I see some things I would be concerned about.  First, in reviewing your math we find some issues.  I looked at 2 feeds, the chicken-turkey and the beef.  Both had stated 65 calories per ounce.  Using a standard 8 oz measuring cup, we find the numbers add up to 520 per cup.  The 1200 cals per cup figure doesn't seem to hold water.  I think this type of ration is a standard commercial 'raw' ration as discussed in the Abady raw diet articles.  They  follow a similar pattern as do they dry commercial rations in respect to ingredients and what they believe to be feeding.  Again
is your dog a carnivore or an omnivore?

Nature's Variety Raw website:

Fresh & Healthy Ingredients
Chicken, Ground Chicken Bone, Turkey, Turkey Liver, Turkey Hearts, Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseeds, Chicken Eggs, Montmorillonite Clay, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary Extract, Sage, Clove, Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid

quote:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 13.0%
Crude Fat (min) 6.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0%
Moisture (max) 68.0%

Calories
65 per oz



I highlighted and underlined intentionally obviously to indicate these types of ingredients do follow a pattern.  They seem very similar to the same ingredients one might found in a posh bag of dry kibble anywhere these days.  Again, the industry standards are omnivore diets and the raw has followed the same path.  Can't you see this Mudpuppy?  After all those posts I've read from you talking about carnivore diets, natures diets, raw diets; and you provide me with this as a comparison to Abady Raw or Abady Granular? I'm surprise you don't see this Mudpuddy, how these modern day raw diets follow along that same path? If you get some free time, take a look at the Abady Raw Products Article.  They have been selling Raw feeds for 30 years, not to be confused with the Granular feeds.  Abady tells in his response to the crictics how some meat comes in frozen blocks and how they shop at several local slaughterhouses directly off the kill floor.  They are not going to steer (no pun intended) you in the wrong direction when it comes to a Raw feeding program.  I see Sooner has got her Abady granular info and has been busy.

Charlie
 
edited: these days replaces these dogs...

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8
This appears tp be a much better food at alot less cost and you can read the ingredients on the Internet.  No byproducts, and no Menadione...
[linkhttp://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485]http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485[/link]
[linkhttp://forums.dogfoodproject.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=dogfood&Number=15024&Searchpage=1&Main=15024&Words=evo&topic=&Search=true#Post15024]http://forums.dogfoodproject.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=dogfood&Number=15024&Searchpage=1&Main=15024&Words=evo&topic=&Search=true#Post15024[/link]

 
The key word here is "appears".