Grains in dog food...what do you think?

With certain topics, people will agree and disagree on many issues.  This stems from exposure to reading materials, what the teachers' philosophies are, etc.   For example, I have a BA in Poly Sci, Class of '84.  Thinking back, it was a liberal college, and much of the political science program had a very liberal slant.  Conservative viewpoints were discussed but not nearly often as liberal thought.  The good news is (lol), I am by no means a liberal democrat, but I lean towards a more conservative view.   I guess what I'm trying to say is, I really don't try to see a right or wrong way in the overall scheme if you see my point?    In time, in a field like animal nutrition I think a student will come to a crossroads and head down a path towards what they feel is best approach.  Heck, I know some nutritionists that think the best approach for feeding cats is a veggie approach, but that is the path they choose to travel.  Is it right, is it wrong…but they do what they feel is right in their heart.

The fiber thing is definitely where we disagree, and from some reading I have done, high fiber diets I think can cause serious issues.  There is more than simply absorption of moisture.  Were talking about disruptions of balance (sometimes very drastic) between host-friendly bacteria, and pathogenic bacteria.   Diets high in fiber can affect the lactic-acid production being converted from sugars.  Host-friendly bacteria, then in turn lactic bacteria, keep the pathogenic bacteria levels under control. 

CC

    Thanks CC but I was asking papillon. []  Now that I look at my post, it does appear as if I was asking you the question. Papillon is a graduate student studying animal nutrition and seemed to agree with your statement about grains, veggies, and fruits, so I was wondering if he or she was taught that an all meat diet is best for dogs. I agree with you about  high fiber diets by the way.

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

    Thanks CC but I was asking papillon. [] 

 
I realized you were asking Papillon, but I wanted to interject some thought on the agree/disagree theme.
 
CC
 

I realized you were asking Papillon, but I wanted to interject some thought on the agree/disagree theme.

 
Yep, thats what message boards are all about!

 cc,  You bring up an interesting point about fiber expanding once it's in the body, and beet pulp possibly expanding more than other sources.  Here is what the company that makes the food I feed my dog has to say about beet pulp:

" Pharmacological doses of fiber (1) (less than 5%), that contains both rapidly and moderately fermentable fiber is recommended in foods for healthy pets. Beet pulp fits that description better than any other fiber. (1) Quality fiber aids in the management of diabetes, colitis and constipation. It absorbs water or gives it up, as necessary, for good health, and correct amounts regulate healthy transit time in the colon. When used correctly in pet food formulas, beet pulp is an excellent fiber source, a partial Prebiotic and aids in the prevention of the diseases noted. Research suggests it may aid in fighting colon cancer, decreases pathogenic bacteria and aids gut health. It is a recommended fiber for pets suffering from gastrointestinal issues (1), IBD, etc.
        If beet pulp is not used, very often mucus builds up on the intestinal wall and inhibits nutrient absorption. About every 30-days so much has built up, it lets go and comes out in the form of mucus covered stools."
      
    I particularly wonder about the last sentence, saying that if beet pulp wasn't used mucus will build up on the intestinal walls and interfere with absorbing nutrients. As you say,
                   "  Keep in mind, the dogs body as designed is perfectly capable of forming stools on it own accord if eating a properly structured diet. "
    Perhaps what it means is if dogs are fed kibble beet pulp is necessary to clean mucus from the intestinal walls?  According to papillon, fiber helps to prevent constipation from grains,
         " the inclusion of fiber doesn't necessarily slow the system down, in most cases of carnivorous species, fiber actually helps the grains pass through so they don't get constipated"
 
   So, not only does it appear that grains may not be necessary for a dog to be healthy,  but a dog's digestive system may not be able to absorb nutrients from grains, and their use may necessitate the addition of fiber to commercial food so the dog can pass the grains through their system without being constipated. Any comments?
    
 
      


      


 
 
       

" Pharmacological doses of fiber (1) (less than 5%), that contains both rapidly and moderately fermentable fiber is recommended in foods for healthy pets

 
This simply states that dogs NEED two types of fiber, rapidly and moderately fermentable fiber and the beet pulp fulfills that need. It also says that it does so better than other sources of fiber.

 

If beet pulp is not used, very often mucus builds up on the intestinal wall and inhibits nutrient absorption. About every 30-days so much has built up, it lets go and comes out in the form of mucus covered stools."

 
Here again, they are referring to the fiber requirements and the fact that beet pulp meets them for this purpose. I don't see anything in these statements that "I" could read into it, stating that grains are not needed and only if you add beet pulp can the dog digest them.
 
Fiber is important in GIT motility and metabolic water absorption. Some fiber is fermentable (which means dogs DO have the necessary bacteria to digest it), some is digestable, some is non-digestable (humans, also, can't digest some fibers). Why do we take fiber supplements? To keep our colon/large intestine regular. It keeps things moving along OR slows them down. I, personally, believe grains (some grains, that is) serve this purpose. Granted, there are other sources of fiber, but as with beet pulp, they are just that, FIBER. Grains provide more than just fiber.

hi all I am new to this line. I have a bischon and a lab. They are not the problam. My daughter just got a puppy...a st. bernard (no papers). It has gurgling tummy and is retching butnot vomiting. Any suggestions? she has had shots..I just left a message to see if she is heartwormed. Ty [8D]

Welcome to idog choozysuzy; You would get more help in the "Illness Disease or Condition", " My Dog Is Sick", or the "Puppies" threads than you will here. I don't think the problem is due to food or something would come up when it tries to vomit; the retching may be caused by a blockage from eating something it shouldn't ( common with puppies), but I don't know if a blockage would cause the gurgling; sorry I can't help more. I would recommend taking it to a vet if it isn't better in the morning.

I remember seeing that question on petdiets.com, here was there answer.
 




Question

Why do vets inisist that dogs "need" grains in their diets when even pet food companies have admitted that they do not and when history, form and function has dictated that they do not? It is my understanding that it is for the sole purpose that kibble must be 40% grain for extrusion purposes.

Answer

Sorry I cannot speak for all vets, and I do not know of any that insist dogs need grain.
It is true the AAFCO does not state a min or max of readily available carbohydrate, starch or better defined as nitrogen free extract (NFE) in their nutrient profile. However, that is not same as saying dog can#%92t use or should not have NFE in their diets. In fact, most dogs digest better than 90% of the starch in their diet.
Yes - The starch in the grain is cooked and expands nicely within the extrusion process when the hot mixture is suddenly cooled. However, I would not say it#%92s the only reason. It is a source of calories and/or fiber without increasing the caloric density of the diet.
There are only 5 nutrient groups and the total must add up to 100% (protein, fat, carbohydrate [fiber and starch], vitamins and minerals). If the vitamin and mineral requirements can be meet with 5-10% of that mixture, and the dog only needs about 15-30% protein and 5-10% fat, there is only one other nutrient class left to make up the remaining 50% = carbohydrate. Various petfoods have altered that last 50% using various combinations of fiber vs. starch, depending on the final fiber and digestible calorie content desired. One could feed no grain but would then have to overfeed protein and/or fat to decrease the carbohydrate portion.

One could feed no grain but would then have to overfeed protein and/or fat to decrease the carbohydrate portion.

this is such a weird concept. In nutrition generally one talks about how many grams of protein, fat, etc. per day the animal needs. If a dog needs X grams of protein, Y grams of fat, and NO carbohydrates per day, how exactly do you convert this back to the weirdo % dry weight concept dog food companies go on about?  Not to mention most dog foods are seriously deficient in protein. Your dog may be alive on 18% protein dry weight, but he's not as healthy as he could be.

This is a really interesting topic. I think I may switch Gingerbread over to Solid Gold Barking at the Moon now that it has only beef and salmon meal for meat sources (no poultry for him to be allergic to) and also doesn't have his other (suspected) allergens- brewer's yeast or flaxseed.
 
I am still concerned though that it has 20% fat. [:-] I wish it was around 16% like Orijen...
 
I also don't know what canned food I would feed. I think it's kind of weird that Solid Gold doesn't make a matching canned food for each of their dry foods... I don't know of another company that doesn't do that. [8|]

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

One could feed no grain but would then have to overfeed protein and/or fat to decrease the carbohydrate portion.

 
But potatoes are grain free carbohydrates...

Sorry OT--Is there any barley in Barking at the Moon??  That sounds like an option for me too. 
 
Back on topic--I understand dogs are supposed to have more meat than grain.  But, how come so many dogs end up with diarrhea on all meat diets then?  Willow would love all meat and I'd give it to her if her stools didn't get soft by the third day or so. 

Luvntzus--how does your pup do w/ big kibbles?? The reason I ask is b/c SG BATM kibbles were too big for my dog (just a heads up) []