Grains in dog food...what do you think?

Lori---so many dogs have diarrhea on an all-meat diet because there is no fiber in their diet to create "bulk" in the GI tract which regulates the peristaltic contractions to slow down or be more steady.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Sorry OT--Is there any barley in Barking at the Moon??  That sounds like an option for me too. 

Back on topic--I understand dogs are supposed to have more meat than grain.  But, how come so many dogs end up with diarrhea on all meat diets then?  Willow would love all meat and I'd give it to her if her stools didn't get soft by the third day or so. 

 
Barking at the Moon is an entirely grain free kibble, like Innova EVO (except that I like the ingredients better). It isn't all meat though. It has potatoes as the major carbohydrate source (3rd and 4th ingredients), also has tomato pomace and a few fruits. Here's the ingredient list and link:
 
Salmon Meal | Beef | Potatoes | Potato Protein | Canola Oil | Tomato Pomace | Natural Flavor | Salmon Oil | Choline Chloride | Taurine | Dried Chicory Root | Parsley Flakes | Pumpkin Meal | Almond Oil | Sesame Oil | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Thyme | Blueberries | Cranberries | Carrots | Broccoli | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Ferrous Sulfate | Zinc Sulfate | Copper Sulfate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Manganese Proteinate | Manganous Oxide | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Manganese Sulfate | Sodium Selenite | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |


[linkhttp://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=81&code=120]http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=81&code=120[/link]

So, then what could I do to prevent the soft/loose stools?  Is there a supplement or something like that?? 
 
Thank you Gingerbread's mom.  I think that looks like a great option and I can easily get it.  I know someone mentioned the kibble is big in size.  Willow is about 50 lbs, is it average size for a dog her size??  (God, I hope that makes sense, [])

You're welcome! I didn't know about the large kibble size. That could be a problem for Gingerbread. []

I have heard that a lot of grain isn't so good for dogs.  But do you think that different breeds and certain dogs would require an individual point of view?  What is good for one dog, may not be good for another. 
 
My biggest concern in todays commercial market is the use of rendered fats and their source!!  Also, the grains can go way over what is healthful for the pet, but it fills their stomach- like junk food.

I understand dogs are supposed to have more meat than grain. But, how come so many dogs end up with diarrhea on all meat diets then? Willow would love all meat and I'd give it to her if her stools didn't get soft by the third day or so

 
That's when they add FIBER in the form of pumkin.
 
While there may be no specific % requirement for dietary fiber (all types) that does not discount there IS a need for it. Fiber helps to regulate water absorbtion in the large intestine and colon. Without it, there tends to be bouts of diarrhea and constipation.
Potatoes are a decent form of CHO's and vitamins/minerals, but don't contain the necessary of dietary fibers that grains offer.

Is there anything else besides pumpkin because I've tried that in the past and she refused to eat it.  Maybe I could freeze it and try that but I don't think she'll eat it even that way. 

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Is there anything else besides pumpkin because I've tried that in the past and she refused to eat it.  Maybe I could freeze it and try that but I don't think she'll eat it even that way. 

 
I'm not sure if you meant adding pumpkin separately, but there's pumpkin in the food. It's pretty far down the list so I doubt Willow would be able to taste it, but then I wonder how effective it is down there also. [&:]
 
Salmon Meal | Beef | Potatoes | Potato Protein | Canola Oil | Tomato Pomace | Natural Flavor | Salmon Oil | Choline Chloride | Taurine | Dried Chicory Root | Parsley Flakes | Pumpkin Meal | Almond Oil | Sesame Oil | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Thyme | Blueberries | Cranberries | Carrots | Broccoli | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Ferrous Sulfate | Zinc Sulfate | Copper Sulfate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Manganese Proteinate | Manganous Oxide | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Manganese Sulfate | Sodium Selenite | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

Oh. . . I think I might of took kennel keepers response the wrong way.  I thought she meant that pumpkin could be added (by me) to help the stool situation.  But, maybe she meant what your saying.  I meant more real meat than all meat kibble, maybe that's where everyone is confused. 
 
This food looks like the one I will try, BTW!

Oh. . . I think I might of took kennel keepers response the wrong way. I thought she meant that pumpkin could be added (by me) to help the stool situation. But, maybe she meant what your saying. I meant more real meat than all meat kibble, maybe that's where everyone is confused.

 
LOL, Lori [] I was referring to those who feed an "all-meat" diet. The big consensis is that dogs don't need grains, so they eliminate them from their diet. Then the dog has bouts of diarrhea and constipation due to the lack of water absorbtion in the colon that the fiber provides. They make up for this by adding pumpkin, which is high in fiber.
So if fiber (grains) aren't a requirement in the diet, why are so many finding it necessary to add pumpkin?
My dogs rarely have diarrhea and IMO, that is because I feed a diet that has a certain amounts of grains (fiber). They do occasionally get a soft stool after having raw chicken, so I don't do that often.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Oh. . . I think I might of took kennel keepers response the wrong way. I thought she meant that pumpkin could be added (by me) to help the stool situation. But, maybe she meant what your saying. I meant more real meat than all meat kibble, maybe that's where everyone is confused.

LOL, Lori [] I was referring to those who feed an "all-meat" diet. The big consensis is that dogs don't need grains, so they eliminate them from their diet. Then the dog has bouts of diarrhea and constipation due to the lack of water absorbtion in the colon that the fiber provides. They make up for this by adding pumpkin, which is high in fiber.
So if fiber (grains) aren't a requirement in the diet, why are so many finding it necessary to add pumpkin?
My dogs rarely have diarrhea and IMO, that is because I feed a diet that has a certain amounts of grains (fiber). They do occasionally get a soft stool after having raw chicken, so I don't do that often.

 
Lol, now I'm confused too. Do some people actually feed an ALL meat diet? [8|] That doesn't seem balanced to me...

Not so sure this will help in any way -- but I have been on a "no grain" search for a while, and to add to the difficulty my older dog needs to be OFF poultry. Try finding a non poultry no grain! Although it is getting easier! EVO has the red meat now, but it is much too rich for his almost 15 year old digestive tract. We have settled on a kibble by Natural Balance - Sweet Potato/ Fish. This I use as a base and add raw meat, meat mixes, loaves, canned, etc. Recently we tried the Honest Kitchen Force. The dogs LOVE this stuff, but alas, my old fella really could not tolerate the chicken (he gets indigestion) So I got some of the Preference, made up some hamburger with their fave herbs (they seem to like the Italian flavors) and did the Preference mix in. They scarfed it up asap! I put the kibble on the side, and the kibble was very last to be eaten. I see there is a product called Urban Wolf, somewhat like the HK. Not sure it is as $$ as the HK.
I also have collected a few grainless home prepared recipes and will be using along with the HK, to off set the cost.

Lori?  If you aren't adding a calcium supplement to that boneless meat that *could* be the problem.  One of my stinkers stole some ground meat off the counter and really paid for it in soupy poop.

Then the dog has bouts of diarrhea and constipation due to the lack of water absorbtion in the colon that the fiber provides. They make up for this by adding pumpkin, which is high in fiber.
So if fiber (grains) aren't a requirement in the diet, why are so many finding it necessary to add pumpkin?

 
Unlike humans, dogs do not need fiber. Let's review: human eats food. It rapidly passes through the stomach. Takes some time to pass through the small intestine. Then the fibers are fermented by bacteria in the colon. If humans do not eat sufficient indigestible fiber to fill up the colon, it does not get stimulated to contract. The longer the food sits there in the colon, the dryer and harder it gets as the colon pumps the water out of the poop. Transit time through the human digestive tract is strongly affected by amount of fiber eaten. You can completely shut down the human digestive tract by not feeding fiber.
 
Dog: eats. Food sits in stomach for hours. Once it leaves the stomach, the food rapidly passes through the entire digestive tract and out the other end. Addition or lack thereof of fiber does not affect transit time through the digestive tract ( I can get you published studies proving this point-- fiber is irrelevant to the dog's digestive tract). Stool consistency is determined mostly by what is left undigested.
 
Dogs who eat a lot of undigestible fiber tend have big soft stools. Cheap dog food companies who put a lot of filler in their dog foods can only prevent diarrhea by adding certain "stool hardening" ingredients to their foods-- thus you get the big but firm poops that so many people feel are "normal" for dogs. Beet pulp and canned pumpkin are popular "stool binders". Dogs who eat too much in general tend to just poop it out the other end undigested-- diarrhea. Dogs who aren't used to variety in their diets also tend to not digest the new foods well, and so it goes out as diarrhea too.
Folks who feed nothing but meat (who are these folks?) are likely to just get small runny dribbles of poop since practically everything was digested. Folks who feed no-grain, no-veg, no-fruit diets, but feed meats and bone, find you can adjust the consistency of the poop by how much bone you add. The more bone, the firmer the poop. You know you have balanced your diet properly when you get small hard poops that don't smell, and don't leave smears on the grass when you pick them up-- without needing to doctor the dog's diet by adding pumpkin or beet pulp.

oh, and humans don't need grains either. My household is almost entirely grain-free at the moment-- humans, dogs, horses, all eating natural diets. Which don't include grain. Grain is for birds and mice.