Grains in dog food...what do you think?

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I'm on the fence about grains....use just enough in my homecooked to say I used some.....BUT people who feed RAW like Lauri have beautiful healthy, GRAIN free dogs......

Very interesting article.  Thanks for posting it.

If a dog can digest cooked or sprouted grains- why not use them if it doesn't cause a dog any problems?  Humans really can't digest grains unless they are cooked or sprouted either but we get many benefits from them.
 
I think it's another individual choice, if your dog does well on grains, use 'em. If not, don't.  

I think that one thing the article was stating is that grains are harder to digest for dogs than meat protein sources that supply the same nutrients as grains, and since grains are empty calories (being digested with no nutrient absorption), they can disrupt the dogs immune system by over-stressing it.   

I am NOT a fan of grains, particularly due to the high potential of contamination in the rendering process.  The fact that commercial foods accept a certain level of aflatoxin and the fact that the levels are controlled/monitored by human beings - makes me very uncomfortable (human error is inevitable).  Most of the major food recalls are due to contaminated grain.  I LOST a dog to a recall from contaminated wheat.  I'm not concerned about the nutritional value of grains (or lack thereof) - I am concerned about the danger of grains in commercial pet food. 
 
That being said - Slick does have a minor amount of grain in his diet.  2 cups/day of Innova LB Puppy kibble has a fair amount of barley and brown rice.  When he is old enough he will go on EVO.  I keep his digestive track "clean" with veggie fiber and will increase this a bit when he goes on the EVO. 

Grain-free doesn't mean carb-free.  Sweet potatoes are a nongrain carb.  So, the issue really is to feed any carbs at all, with the subissue being grain carbs v. nongrain.

BUT, as I understand it, and I could be wrong, it's the GRAIN carbs that feed cancer cells, not the veggie carbs.

  papillon806, Is it true that a dog's body has to work harder to convert amino acids from grain into (not sure of the terminology) what is needed for it's body to use, whereas amino acids from meat are more readily available?

Yes...mainly because starch (in the grains) has to be broken down into monosaccharides which are carried from the duodenum (front part) of the small intestine to the portal blood system, then through the liver where it is converted to glucose (blood sugar), then to the rest of the body.  After this, the contents remaining in the small intestine are the few amino acids provided by the grains.  In most dogs, their digestive system is moving so quickly that by this time they have already passed the undigested amino acids to the large intestine where no absorption can occur (usually resulting in gas...which is also why overfeeding can be bad--passing nutrients too quickly through the body).   Now, when meat-protein is digested, the amino acids are what we call "readily available," meaning that the peptide bonds connecting them are easily broken down by an enzyme in the dogs small intestine called aminopeptidase.  That's all there is to the protein digestion (in the scheme of things). 

Another thing I forgot to mention is that some of  the amino acids that grains contain are "limited"....this means that there is too little of one, the others cannot function or are useless...the analogy my professor used is: the "Building a car analogy": You need 4 tires, 1 steering wheel, and 2 axles to build a car...right? So how many cars can you build with  7 tires, 5 steering wheels, and 10 axes? -Which item is "limiting" the number of cars you can build?

lots of dogs are never fed grain or carbs and do very well. Dogs don't work harder to digest grain, they just don't digest it well, and poop most of it out-- the nutrients dog food companies claim are in their grain-laden foods just don't end up in the dog. Dogs who participate in sprinting sports have been shown to perform better when fed some carbohydrates. Dogs fed on high-carb diets have been shown to put on body fat and lose body muscle (since most of these diets are deficient in proteins the dog can actually use). Seen any "saggy fat" corn-fed dogs around you lately????
Bottom line, dog food has grain or potatoes in it because these foods are cheaper than meat. Dogs don't need these foods. Very active dogs may benefit from some carbohydrates in the diet. But your average couch-potato pet does not.

ORIGINAL: papillon806
 In most dogs, their digestive system is moving so quickly that by this time they have already passed the undigested amino acids to the large intestine where no absorption can occur (usually resulting in gas...which is also why overfeeding can be bad--passing nutrients too quickly through the body).   Now, when meat-protein is digested, the amino acids are what we call "readily available," meaning that the peptide bonds connecting them are easily broken down by an enzyme in the dogs small intestine called aminopeptidase.  That's all there is to the protein digestion (in the scheme of things).

 
Why is the dogs digestive system moving so quickly?  It shouldn#%92t be.  It should be moving at a pace where there is ample time for proper digestion and absorption.  Measures must be taking by the manufacturers to in fact slow the system down.  Problem is, there are too many ingredients in dog food not intended for the dogs body to be consumed.  To be specific, veggies, grains, fruits, etc., are not part of a dogs natural diet.  Dogs are indeed undoubtedly carnivores and these improper ingredients are naturally being rushed through the dogs body, for they don#%92t belong.  Inclusion of these ingredients dictates profit margin, and the manufacturer must avoid a diarrhea situation.  Therefore the manufacturer only has one option, and that is the inclusion of fiber to slow down the system.  Seemingly innocent numbers in the 3-7% range are very misleading in regards to total volume.  Due to the expansion of fibers (beet pulp probably being the worst offender) those numbers of 3-7% in no way gives you an accurate picture of how much volume the fiber actually consumes as part of the diet.   Now this opens up the door for a whole host of problems.  Fibers can block and impede the transfer of nutrients as you described and impede proper breakdown of the protein.  Now you have bloodstream issues to contend with the improper breakdown of proteins and this can lead to none other than immune system trouble and onset of allergies.  Absorption does occur in the lg. intestine mostly water from the stool, however there is some transfer of important nutrients vital to good colon heath.  High fiber diets can interfere with that process as well, creating more harmful bacteria than beneficial bacteria.  Keep in mind, the dogs body as designed is perfectly capable of forming stools on it own accord if eating a properly structured diet.
 
Charlie

To be specific, veggies, grains, fruits, etc., are not part of a dogs natural diet. Dogs are indeed undoubtedly carnivores and these improper ingredients are naturally being rushed through the dogs body, for they don#%92t belong.

That's why they are moving so quickly.... []

And the inclusion of fiber doesn't necessarily slow the system down, in most cases of carnivorous species, fiber actually helps the grains pass through so they don't get constipated.

And yes, water is absorbed in the large intestine, but that is not "absorption."  I was referring to the "absorption" of nutrients, and that does NOT occur in the large intestine.

  papillon806, It is so cool to have someone studying animal nutrition on i-dog.[] I'm learning a lot by reading your posts.
 
                " To be specific, veggies, grains, fruits, etc., are not part of a dogs natural diet.  Dogs are indeed undoubtedly carnivores and these improper ingredients are naturally being rushed through the dogs body, for they don#%92t belong.  "   Charlie
 
   You seemed to agree with that statement. However, I thought that an all meat diet was bad. Is that true?