Grains in dog food...what do you think?

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Do you think that a dog food would be lacking sufficient nutrients if it had no grain sources? (like EVO, TWO W&N, Solid Gold BATM)  I think they supply all the nutrients a dog would need without the use of grains...

As for the logging out thing....yes it did that to me when I first got on a couple of times, but I haven't had a problem since.

Personally, I have/do feed EVO. I like the grain free diets, but still feel that some grains are good and serve a specific niche.
Right now my two chihuahua's and my oldest beagle are on the Eagle Pack Holistic fish with oatmeal and the beagles get the EP Original and some EP Power a day or two before and after a trial or heavy work outs. The house dogs do get EVO rotated in every few weeks for one meal a day because I like the ingredients, the protein level, the kcals, the energy it gives them, and the way it makes them look (and apparently feel). But I don't want to feed them this exclusively, forever. None of my dogs have sensitive stomachs and I have found that rotating their diets doesn't really affect their tummys at all. Heck, my old beagle bitch will eat chicken feed, goat feed, and rabbit feed just to keep them from getting any!

It says that it takes 6lbs of meat to make 1 lb of meat meal. So people who think they are buying a food that is MEAT based don't realize that when MEAT is listed as the first ingredient, after actually processing the primary ingredient becomes GRAINS. 

 
Please explain this.  
Meat MEALS have the water removed.   Meat meal proteins are more concentrated than real meat, because real meat contains 70% water.  Maybe when MEAT is listed first the primary ingredient becomes GRAINS, but not meat meal!

[8D]

From what I have learned in my animal nutrition classes, meat protein provides all amino acids needed in a dogs diet...grains supply a few of these, but nothing that cannot be found in meat-protein.  Nowhere in that article does it say that grains supply amino acids that meats do not.

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You're right....they are found in the added vitamins and minerals at the end of an ingredient list.

Edited, see below

ORIGINAL: myorganicpets

Ok.. then where do you suppose the dog is able to get the complete range of essential vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, phytochemicals ,etc that are necessary for fighting free radicals, preventing cancer and tumor growth, maintaining a healthy gut, maintaining a strong immune system, healthy bones, teeth and joints, etc etc etc. Those things cannot be derived from a soley meat based diet.

So what is your opinion of Timberwolf's grain free formulas?

Actually, that brings up another question I've been wondering about. In this threadhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=5820 you mentioned that Ocean Blue is the only TO grain free. As a distributor, do you know something we don't know about the Wild & Natural?

Also I have to ask about the "preventing cancer and tumor growth" comment. I thought it was proven that cancerous cells thrived on grains?

I don't want to make anybody mad, but can we stick to the topic here and not try and get myorganicpets to defend TO again....isn't that in another 3 threads already?

I have already asked the opinion on the grain-free foods, and I think that the answer to your question lies in here in one form or another....to denote everyone on their hipocracy is not what I was trying to accomplish here. 
Again, I am not trying to upset you, I just don't want this thread to end up "hijacked" []

I'm really asking honest question, especially about the cancer cells. I keep my rottweiler on grain free since that breed is prone to cancer and I've read that cancer cells do thrive on grains. If MOP has different information I'm sincerely interested in it.

Ok....I was just making sure that there is an understanding in the purpose of this thread 

I'm not mad, but I'm not going to be scared off from asking honest questions either. This is totally on topic for "Grains in dog food...what do you think?"

The answer to your kibble question was:

If they were using grain alternatives like flaxseed, millet, amaranth etc. Seeds nuts and veggies. I don't believe you can just feed MEAT and get all the essential nutrients . It's impossible."

Since the Ocean Blue and Wild & Natural (or EVO or BaTM) don't use flaxseed, millet, amaranth etc... I'm curious for people's opinions on if they provide proper nutrition.

Personally I think they are great grain-free kibbles. The other super high-protein foods don't always fit a person's needs, and that's where these have a niche.

And I don't think it is out of line to ask why a distributor for the company said they only make one grain free when they advertise two.

Jana,
I really like the article.  Rare these days to find a vet not brainwashed by industry propaganda. 
I think the issue is not whether or not the grain is in the feed.  Reality is people need affordable feeds because of the explosion of pet ownership.  The industry has created it's own monster by flooding the market with cheap feeds (using grain to boost profit) and as a result caused pet ownership to become affordable to a high majority of people.  The issue is, how bad are people actually getting ripped off in regards to protein.  Legally, these companies can really fudge these numbers and pull the wool over many an eye.  Very few companies actually will come clean and let you know exactly what your getting in regards to protein.  People like myself who subscribe to the carnivore program want to feed animal source proteins.  However, people are being fooled for whatever reasons (market strategies, marketing ploys, catchy advertising, cute bags, etc.) and they think they are purchasing a carnivore targeted feed and they are getting the opposite, an omnivore targeted feed.  If you subscribe to the carnivore plan, you hope to get a much higher concentration of meat, chicken, and fish protein, not proteins from grains or other non-animal sources.   Many dog food companies talk a good game when it comes to the carnivore program, but in reality they hope to simply capture some of that market share and continue to sell cheaper omnivore targeted feeds.  If you have any doubts about your feed and you think maybe there is something to that carnivore thing, just look at the ingredients in your feed.  Does it start off nice fizzle out quickly?  Is it loaded up with grains, fruits, and veggies?  Chances are, by the time you get to the cranberries and yucca plant nonsense, you should have already concluded, this product in no doubt, without question, an omnivore targeted feed.  If you feel you dog by nature an omnivore and you want omnivore targeted feed, you then may also think the ingredients you see happen to be the best thing since sliced bread!  You may have indeed found the best food to your liking (hopefully you pet will like it as well).

So back to the protein deception and rip off, where exactly is this snow job?  It lies in the first few ingredients mostly, and probably the guiltiest are the "fresh”, "wholesome”,
"human-grade” starter ingredients.  We know as discussed earlier in this thread about moisture content of meat muscle (up to 70%).  Legally a percentage (a strong percentage) of that moisture content can be calculated on a solids basis in regards to protein content.  However we all know that on a solids basis, the first ingredient (or first several for that matter) in actuality contains a much smaller amount of animal source proteins.   Picture a 12 in. ruler in front of you now just look at 0-3.  There is you protein out of that lot.  So what typically makes up the remainder of the protein needed to meet the target numbers?
Gluten source proteins make up the difference and their lies your deception and rip-off.  Gluten source proteins are inferior to animal source in all aspects, especially in regards to needs of carnivores.  The whole body now becomes in jeopardy and at risk to breakdowns…everything across the board from toe nail to anal sac gland.  Carnivores nutritional needs are complex and higher levels of nutrition are needed; that is why for sound growth and body, animal source proteins is what the dogs body is screaming for, not the proteins derived from grains and gluten source.  You know what is sad; take a look at The My Dog is Sick thread, Allergies Skin and Coat, etc.  All you read about is these poor pet owners with nothing but problems and vet bills and more problems.  The sad part is much of it is the result of the great deception, the misguided info to promote industry profit, to justify the use of cheaper inferior ingredients, the silly notion, that your dog, fangs and all, is an omnivore.  That is the result; you have dogs breaking down across the board, across the country, across all breed lines.  What else can it possibly be other than the food?

Charlie