By-Products

On a similar note last night I was going over my friends dogs food with her (Iams minichunks - I think tha'ts what it was called) and we were using google to look up exactly what certain things in it were and finding MSDS sheets for these things.  One (can't remember what it was right of hand) was an eye, respiratory and skin irratant.  ICK!  There really shouldn't be MSDS sheets for stuff that is in pet food should there?

Wolves eat most of an animal, including the parts we consider byproduct, edible or not. They don't necessarily get nutrition from all the byproduct, it's just a result of eating an animal whole. One person here has a dog that hunts, kills, and eats entire birds. The difference between that and commercial food is that the dog or wolf is getting it fresh but without FDA quality controls.
 
Probably the only real issue with byproduct in food is two questions. First, the level of protein  and how easy it is to digest varies from one type of byproduct to another. And that will depend on the rendering. Second, is quality control  in preventing the byproduct from becoming rancid, spoiled, or infected with a parasite, toxin, whathaveyou. A food without byproduct has an easier to manage level of protein that is consistent. A food without byproduct is antithetical to the wild dog diet, where it is feast or famine and the wild dog might not always get the choice pieces every time.

I feed mostly fresh foods, and my dogs get by products. I spend $3 a can on by products, once a week! They get Tripett, on Saturdays. I buy them marrow bones. They eat whole prey, on occasion (feet, face, feathers, fur, scales, and all). I would say that some by products are GOOD for our dogs, BUT.....

If it says "by products" on a bag of food, I won't buy it, b/c I don't know what it is.

I too have never heard of there being 16 different levels of by-products, but I think it's easy to put together a general breakdown of what would go where if we look at past research and recall label ingredients.
 
Whole chickens rocessed for human consumption
-Out of that comes chicken meat processed for humans
-Organ meat processed for humans
-Possibly feet processed for humans
-Whole chickens processed for pet food (a couple of brands list them as whole, and we assume meal probably falls into this group as well)
-Chicken meat processed for pet food
-Organ meat processed for pet food [listed as by-products (organ meat only), chicken liver, etc.]
-Rest of the carcass processed for pet food industry - general "by-products"
 
Whole chickens that do not make the grade for human consumption upon processing
-Whole chickens processed for pet food
-Chicken meat processed for pet food (assuming they are not always processed whole)
-Organ meat processed for pet food (still labeled specifically though)
-Rest of the carcass processed for pet food - general "by-products"
 
Grocery store rejects/passed expiration date chicken products
-Processed for pet food - general "by-products"
 
And although the 'laws' governing the by-product processing require them not to include feathers and the like, the last part always states 'except what is unavoidable in good processing procedures' (or something very similar...I'm too lazy to surf and quote)
 
I think it's very safe to assume that anything labeled as just "by-products" *could* be questionable.  However by-products listed as purely organ meat would probably be an excellent ingredient. 
 
The whole point to by-products being cheaper as a protien source already sends red flags (IMO) that it is the not the highest quality ingredient for anyone (human or animal) to be eating.  We all know that the pet food industry (as a general rule) is all about using the by-products of any kind to make the extra buck.  If we are to assume that Hill's or anyone of it's stature were using high quality by-products than I would surely expect to see "organ meat only" or "chicken liver" specifically on the ingredients list. 
 
I don't buy that the by-products from the chickens processed for human consuption are kept seperate from all other forms of by-products.  Again because the whole term by-products to me speaks of a way to cover a vast amount of possible loopholes.  And frankly most reputable pet food manufacturers are proud of their ingredients and would then PREFER that they be listed more specifically if they are in fact higher quality than the general.
 
Feel free to add to the breakdown if I missed anything.....this is just my random thinking !

Science Deit RD was the ONLY thing that pulled weight from my KayCee.  I would feed it to her every day if that was tahe only way to keep her weight down, but i have been able to do for the past year with no SD RD.  My dogs get meat and veggies every night with a litle kibble--either fresh caguth and microwaved fish (including sea trout and flourder), canned mackeral or boiled chicken hearts, livers or gizzards, beef heart, liver, or sometimes just boiled ground beef, and sometimes chicken.  Mostly they get fish.  I add canned, unsalted green beans and carrot slices and they love supper

Prove to me where someone MUST use a veterinary formula.

I have to agree with this! Some of the above examples do not HAVE to feed the prescription foods,they choose to feed them.They can go the homecooked or raw option but they choose not to do that,instead they choose the prescription foods.
I've seen the ingredients to those foods and personally i wouldnt feed them for all the tea in china [&:] There are far better,healthier options before resorting to these.

Keva i would be asking your vet for PROOF that there are 16 different by-products []This sounds like one of science diets speels which your vet like so many other have fallen for! By-products are an out for the manufacture's to add whatever happens to be cheapest and/or plentiful  at the time of production,there is nothing stopping them listing exactly what by-products are in their products,but this would be too hard because the ingredients can change from batch to batch which would be an utter nightmare if you have an allergy dog! And if a company is using human grade ingredients they will make damn sure their customers know about it,it would also most likely be printed on the bag or website somewhere,this is something to be proud of and advertised.If a company isnt advertising human grade ingredients,that means they arent using them!

The only reason that I brought up the Hills comment is to elude to the fact that this vet thinks the by-products in Hills are of a higher quality the by-products in Beneful...that's actually how the discussion came up.  I was gagging at this generic bag of food that looked just like beneful and reading the ingredients and then all the vets started saying how horrible beneful was (which I found interesting) one actually made the connection between allergies and most the dogs he sees with them are on beneful. Interesting I think so...anyway the other vet at that point made her comment about how gross beneful was and how the by-products in it were of lower quality than those is Hills.  Tada the connection was made and I was lost so I thought that I would ask...Thanks you everyone for all the replys I really appreciate it![]

OH OH AND BIG NEWS!!! I WAS JUST TALKING TO MY GRANDMOTHER (SHE'S 70) ABOUT IAMS (WHICH SHE FEEDS TO HER TWO LABS) AND ABOUT HOW I FOUND MSDS SHEETS FOR INGREDIENTS IN IAMS THAT SAY THEY CAUSE SKIN IRRITATION AND SHE SAID SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO SWITCH HER FOOD B/C THAT'S PROBABLY WHY HER YELLOW LAB IS ALWAYS LICKING HIS FEET.  and SHE ACTUALLY STARTED ASKING ME ABOUT FEEDING RAW...I JUST SUGGESTED EVO (BECAUSE THEY ARE MORBIDLY OBESE!!!) [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] yay  so that's my big news but I am so excited!!!

Would I feed a SD RX food to one of mine?  You betcha if I couldn't replicate it with homecooked and thats the ONLY thing they could handle.  Guess for some folks its just easier to throw stones than to be open minded to others.

Thank you Glenda[]

ORIGINAL: myorganicpets

Prove it.  Prove to me where someone MUST use a veterinary formula.  Also who was talking about that ?  I'm talking about by-products and what they teach vets in school and that information is FACTUAL.  So saying that some people "have to use" vet formulas does not change the fact that they are made from crap by-products unfit for human consumption and deemed unfit for pet consumption as well.  You know as well as I  do that there is no such thing as QUALITY by-products in petfood unless it is human grade and nothing Hills, Purina, Iams or any of those companies make is made from products fit for human consumption

I know a couple people who have to use Rx formulas - or at least I feel it would be presumptious of me tosuggest they change from their vet-recommended/prescribed special food for kidney, or stones, or that special things that only dalmations do, to suit my standards of dog food.
I have a friend who has a dal who's on special diet for some kidney predisposition that dals have - I would NEVER consider convincing her away from what her dog eats.

That's just me.
Paula

Keva, you are not bashing anyone at all. I worked in an animal hospital for years and I am familiar with that mindset.

MOP, the whole prove or dis-prove issue with RX diets........ Frustrating. There are a lot of rx diets for different indications, and while I don't agree with some of the ingredients in all of them, I do know of many many pets that have been saved by them. My own kids at one point included.

You have a very valid point about the food, but until they make better quality rx diets this is the choice that we have. I know that if my cat had early stage CRF I would most likely go with the rx, unless I could find a totally appropriate natural food that would compare well. I am not a nutritionist, so it might be a bit scary to do that! It is scary for a lot of people to do so.

I understand that you do a lot of research and are passionate about what you believe, but you are not a clinical nurtitionist and (while I agree with 95% of your points) a lot of things that you say are not proven fact.

All of this boils down to the big companies improving the quality of their foods, rx and others. Until this happens, some are stuck with what is offered in an attempt to help their sick pets.

I enjoy reading these articles. They are informative and objective.
 
[linkhttp://www.belfield.com/article3.html]http://www.belfield.com/article3.html[/link]
 
 

I second that thank you to Glenda!!

You are more than welcome.  I absolutely meant it.
 
I am blessed with healthy, robust dogs who will eat whatever I feed them.  Their "junk food" is Innova with their dinner being either homecooked or raw.  I've done tons of research into animal nutrition and I tend to sit right on the fence on some things....grains aren't needed?  Or maybe they are.....4 oz of brown rice goes in my 20 quart pot, just in case.  Not enough to be a problem, maybe not even enough to do any good, but it's there, just in case.  And even with all the research I've done, gosh, I'd be reluctant to start playing around if someone had say IBD.  I hate the crap some of the RX formulas contain.....but, I'd feed it if I needed to, because it isn't about what is best for me or what makes ME happy, it's about what's best for my dogs.
 
So, if your vet has said to feed an RX diet, do all the research you can and see if you can't replicate that diet without all the yucky stuff, but in the meantime, stick with what works for your dog WITHOUT GUILT.

I know a couple people who have to use Rx formulas - or at least I feel it would be presumptious of me tosuggest they change from their vet-recommended/prescribed special food for kidney, or stones, or that special things that only dalmations do, to suit my standards of dog food.
I have a friend who has a dal who's on special diet for some kidney predisposition that dals have - I would NEVER consider convincing her away from what her dog eats.

 
 
Quite a few dalmation breeders advocate feeding a specially modified raw diet to prevent the dal-specific kidney stone problems.  If you look around, you can find healthier alternatives to pretty much all of the Rx diets.
 
I have to agree with Sharon-- I would never feed those Rx diets for more than a few months. Anyone who truly cared about their dog would do the research and get the dog off the diet as soon as possible-- after the dog's condition had stabilized, of course. There are always other, better, long-term options. Those Rx diets are formulated to cheaply address one particular health problem, and used long-term they are certain to cause other health problems.