I DID IT, I DID IT

For goodness sakes!Are we talking about feeding dogs or sheep here? If someone were to ask you(collective) "what are dogs meant to eat"? What would be the first thing to pop in to your head? Kibble? Surely not?? Raw meat and bones would be my first response.
Canines have powerful jaws and teeth,along with a short digestive tract accompanied by powerful stomach acids,nature has dictated that they are meat and bone eaters.

All this paranoia would perhaps be better directed at whatever is in that bag of commercial food Fido eats everyday.Their whole make up has evolved to consume,digest and use raw meat and bone,i just can not see any argument against this??

I can promise that after you have given rover that first raw meaty bone and watch how artfully and naturally that bone is consumed,you're worries will quickly fade.

When my vet see's clients with tartar,dirty teeth etc. her first recommendation before trying a descaling are rmb's,she mainly recommends chicken necks and wings among others.Most often than not the clients who take her advice do not have to come back for a dental.She says the risk of anasthesia etc(firsthand knowledge) far outweighs the risks of feeding dogs their natural diet.

Okay but if you have low blood sugar,,you can not eat sugar...but you can not eat starches either...because it changes to sugar??????

 
True, but my point was starches don't have the same effect on teeth as sugar. My Mom blood sugar issues, and basically she has problems with any carbohydrates, so she avoids them as much as possible. I still don't think that's healthy for people, but she won't listen.
 
But yeah, your body converts carbohydrates to sugar (glucose, which is vital for your brain). Simple carbs convert faster, and thus affect your blood sugar more, but even complex carbs get turned into sugar, and usually have some effect on blood sugar.

ORIGINAL: Edie
I can promise that after you have given rover that first raw meaty bone and watch how artfully and naturally that bone is consumed,you're worries will quickly fade.

Uh, I feed Ella raw and when I first started out A.) it was NOT easy for me. I freaked out and sat right next to her the entire time, and B.) She would not eat it the first like, 5-10 times I tried to feed it to her.

I understand kibble feeders being hesitant about starting raw, but it IS ok and 99% of dogs do wonderfully on it and don't have ANY issues chewing the bones.

it's funny, I worry more now about her eating kibble.

Their whole make up has evolved to consume,digest and use raw meat and bone,i just can not see any argument against this??

ORIGINAL: Edie

Not too long after I got my then 11 month old German Shepherd I gave her a Nature's Variety pork RMB.  It was eye opening watching her crunch and chew that bone and cartilidge.  I thought we had a wolf in the house!  I wasn't really expecting her to go through it as quickly as she did (she chewed thoroughly).  She really enjoyed it.
 
Because of the quantity of meat, bone and marrow I only let her eat half (and the other half was too messy to save) but the whole family was suprised at how deftly our submissive little girl crunched up that fairly hefty bone.  I was really expecting her to eat the meat quickly and nibble on the bone a bit but heard that crunch that reminded me of the old Tootsie Pop commerical.  The one where the owl asks the boy how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.  One, two crunch, three!
 
I've tried giving her chicken but so far she won't touch it raw.
 

Their whole make up has evolved to consume,digest and use raw meat and bone,i just can not see any argument against this

 
Their actual biology requires an omnivore diet. And just because a creature survived long enough to procreate doesn't mean its diet was optimum. And just because a creature has carni teeth does not mean it's not an omni, like the bear, as is often mentioned. It has carni teeth but his omni. Other canids, such as the coyote are observed eating plant matter, as well as by-product, etc. These things are well-documented facts, as in observable science.
 
You can feed your dogs nothing but meat and bones. Without supps, they will get sick or deteriorate because the meat, alone, is not balanced.That is also documented.
 
 And while they may chew on bones and even swallow them, they, like the wolf, will not get any nutrition from the bone itself and will pass it through if they are fortunate. Dogs do not get to eat the hide the bones may be wrapped in and do not have the same size stomach and ability as a wolf to hold that bone until it is wrapped in hide and may be more susceptible to perforation because of this.
 
Still, many people find this an acceptable risk and that's okay. We are each responsible for our pets and do as we see fit. Example, we have to leave Shadow in the back yard when we are both gone for more than an hour or so. That is a risk we have to take. He may be eating mice back there. He killed a squirrel once. I found a bird carcass, all the meat gone. He may be eating raw on his own and I'm not going to worry about it. It's less of a risk that the family he used to live that was going th euthanize him out of pure meanness.

I'm sure not going to argue raw vs kibble here,,,again, as in the subject of which kibble vs which kibble,,,its the owners business and who are we to say what you should do? To me there has been no proof that feeding raw is any healthier then kibble or homecooked or any feed. I sit here and read this forum and other then on  the nutrition threads...I read that dogs are still getting diseases and illnesses and dying. In spite of all these conversations about which food is best.  So again, you do what you feel you should and can do for your dog.    
But TO ME to argue what dogs ate in the wild is a mute point.  Wild animals do not live long,, only the very healthiest survive. Many wild animals die because of the food they ate,,whether it be  that it choked them, poisoned them or bones punctured their insides. I don't want my dog to die like that.    Will she die if I feed her raw?  Probably not,,,but its not what I think is best, therefore, I will feed her food that I feel is safer. And I also feel better about feeding her food that is made especially for dogs...by companies that study what they need and put that in their food. No, dog food, especially kibble does NOT look appetizing.. but guess what??  It does to my dog, it probably does to your dog too!  I also feel that we can not compare are dogs to wild wolves because our dogs are domesticated...they are much different then wild dogs ages ago.

I can promise that after you have given rover that first raw meaty bone and watch how artfully and naturally that bone is consumed,you're worries will quickly fade

  
This statement is certainly NOT TRUE in my case.  I gave Bubblegum raw..and I still do. I give her bones to chew on. I give her chicken necks and hearts from any whole chicken I make, and my friend who makes a lot of whole chickens saves me hers for Bubby.  When I make my Thankgsgiving turkey I will save her the neck and insides to give her also.   Why?  Because I'm trying to give her something different and trying to keep her teeth in good shape.  Will my worries fade? Heck no!  Each and every thing I give her I watch her like a hawk..and then I worry that everything got down there okay and won't puncture or do something unexpected after she consumes it..  A little neurotic I know,,,but that is the way it is.  I do know she enjoys these things..but I am not comfortable giving them to her in any way.   On top of it, when I ventured out and gave her a few other raw meaty bones to eat..such as back ribs...she had diarrhea on and off for weeks. To keep giving her more to see if she eventually gets used to them is totally out of the question.  So there is nothing about raw or raw bones that I feel comfortable feeding my dog.

I can promise that after you have given rover that first raw meaty bone and watch how artfully and naturally that bone is consumed,you're worries will quickly fade

 
I agree with you Dyan about the above statement.  That is about like saying you watch your child ride his bike around the block the first time so you never worry about him riding his bike again.I always worried. Same when they started driging.  My sons are 37 and 40 and i still worry about them, especially when i know they are going on a trip  The unexpected can always happen.

And while they may chew on bones and even swallow them, they, like the wolf, will not get any nutrition from the bone itself and will pass it through if they are fortunate. Dogs do not get to eat the hide the bones may be wrapped in and do not have the same size stomach and ability as a wolf to hold that bone until it is wrapped in hide and may be more susceptible to perforation because of this.

    I agree with this and do not give Jessie any bones that she can consume; she occasionally gets a beef short rib or marrow bone because while she is chewing the meat from them it cleans her teeth nicely; she is closely supervised and does not eat the bone. She gets raw occasionally but it's the NV medallions which have ground bone. I have seen coyote scat several times and the bone is wrapped in rabbit fur, so it's true that wild canids have that ability to protect thier intestines from perforations. Even if our dogs had that ability they are not fed the entire carcass including the hide so they have no natural protection against perforations from bones.

And just because a creature has carni teeth does not mean it's not an omni, like the bear, as is often mentioned. It has carni teeth but his omni.

"Bear teeth are not specialized for killing their prey like those of cats. Normal canine teeth in a carnivore are generally large and pointed used for killing prey, while bears' canine teeth are relatively small and typically used in defense or as tools. Bears' molar teeth are broad, flat and are used to shred and grind plant food into small digestable pieces."

From [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear[/link]. Go ahead and say that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information, I don't care.

"The major difference between carnivore and omnivore dentition are the molars, which in bears are broad and flat."

From [linkhttp://www.bowhunting.net/bearhunting.net/bear2.html#teeth]http://www.bowhunting.net/bearhunting.net/bear2.html#teeth[/link]

Also, there are pictures in which you can see their teeth. Even a polar bear, which is a carnivore, I believe? Has these teeth (this is a picture of a replica. It doesn't seem that many people are interested in seeing the actual molars of bears..)


 
Look how flat their molars are. Remind you of anyone? Yourself, perhaps? Omnivore teeth, albeit a little more carnivore-like (check out those canines!).

Dogs are simply not equipped to handle plant matter, without interference from us or other animals (i.e. pre-chewed and partially digested in the digestive tracts of their prey). They don't have the teeth or nature to grind it up, nor the digestive system to digest it whole. Being able to handle processed plant matter doesn't make them omnivores.

   Bears and domestic dogs both have an adaptation to thier mandible which is shared by other omnivores but wolves do not have; it's called the coronoid process; it's a triangular formation that fits into the zygomatic arch and provides attachment for the temporal muscles of the jaw.
 
   [linkarams=A1ARTA0008669]http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&arams=A1ARTA0008669[/link];>http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&arams=A1ARTA0008669]http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&arams=A1ARTA0008669[/link];
 
" Early dogs were smaller than most wolves, and subsequent selective breeding has produced dogs of many sizes and conformations. Dogs also possess a posteriorly recurved coronoid margin to the ascending process of the lower jaw, which all wolves lack, except for the Chinese C. l. chanco known from Mongolia and China. This form of the coronoid is characteristic of omnivorous carnivores (bears, raccoons, etc) and has been interpreted to suggest that the smaller omnivorous ancestor to C. l. chanco was  preadapted to living with humans, as it could share food."

"Bear teeth are not specialized for killing their prey like those of cats. Normal canine teeth in a carnivore are generally large and pointed used for killing prey, while bears' canine teeth are relatively small and typically used in defense or as tools. Bears' molar teeth are broad, flat and are used to shred and grind plant food into small digestable pieces."

 
You may call those teeth short---I call them something i wouldn't want to get sunk unto my body! GEEEZ, they are scarey.  Makes me know i would not go camping in bear territory!

You may call those teeth short---I call them something i wouldn't want to get sunk unto my body! GEEEZ, they are scarey. Makes me know i would not go camping in bear territory!

 
The picture was polar bear teeth, which is, for the most part, a carnivore. Black bears, at least, have smaller canines, but definitely not what I would call small either. I only seem to be able to find teeth pictures of black and polar bears. [&:]

They don't have the teeth or nature to grind it up, nor the digestive system to digest it whole. Being able to handle processed plant matter doesn't make them omnivo

 
Okay, then I'll tell Shadow to quit eating grass, roots, pecans, or the piece of wheat french bread that fell on the floor last night. Of course, he may not listen to me. He'l just crunch it around in his premolars and swallow.
 

 

Okay, then I'll tell Shadow to quit eating grass, roots, pecans, or the piece of wheat french bread that fell on the floor last night. Of course, he may not listen to me. He'l just crunch it around in his premolars and swallow.

[sm=rotfl.gif]


good one []

Lovely post but it can't mean anything since it didn't come from wikipedia, the only source of information worth reading.
 
Coyotes have some carnivorous teeth, too, but they haven't read wikipedia and keep eating the danged plants. Whatever we do, we must not let wikipedia provide a south american translation. It will upset the Maned Wolf, which consumes plants up to 50 % of it's summer diet. Or foxes, which will eat berries and such. Or the grey wolf in Canada I saw eating something from a plant. Danged omnivores are ruining it for everyone.