early spaying and neutering

If you consider professionals a 3,  I am a 2.5.  I have another career to which I am very dedicated.  I have other hobbies and interests that take my time and money as well as the dogs (although the dogs do take a pretty good chunk of the descretionary incomve []).  I have many friends in the "professional" cataogry.  Typically they bred an occassional litter, are doing dog related activity practically every weekend of the year (for those who have to have another source of income).  I dont quite fit in that group.

I can't get a break nohow.  I think the logical ranking is 1=Professional and you say 1=JQP.  I say categories are better (better is 2 versus best 3 or more) while you bring in complicated fractions into the equations.  I can count on a 3 finger hand just how many times I have been in sync with someone else on this forum. 

I think the problem is that you're trying to categorize the levels of the human-animal bond. You can't do that. The human animal bond is multi-faceted, and people will surprise you every day with the lengths they will go for their pets, and also their callousness.

There are farmers who work their dogs day in and day out, and if a dog breaks a leg, they put them down because it would cost more to fix the dog than to buy and train a new one. Sometimes those farmers will get attached to a particular dog and let them retire to become indoor dogs, and then end up spending thousands on surgery and hospitalization when the dog gets bloat. Others retire to kennels outdoors where they never see a vet again until they show up at the back door, skinny and barely able to walk lying on a blanket in the bed of a pickup truck for euthanasia, dying of who knows what disease and unwilling to find out to treat it. Some of these guys have been raising dogs and all sorts of other critters since before I was born. Most of them know more than I do about keeping animals healthy... but not all of them will use their knowledge to the benefit of the dog.

I've seen very wealthy people wait in line for free rabies vaccinations because they're required by law, and I've seen people use their childs college funds to fix their dogs broken leg when there was no other money to spare.

I've seen kittens go under surgery 3 times to fix a dislocated elbow joint that might never get fixed, and the kitten was a barn cat they never meant to keep anyway. I've seen a lady nurse kittens every hour so they would live after her favorite stray died of leukemia a week after giving birth.  I've also seen a guy bring in a cat with its eyeball hanging out and bitch because we charged him 5 dollars over the 300 we quoted him. He told us he'd just leave the kitten to its fate if we didn't fix it for under 300 dollars, so we did a 700 dollar surgery for practically nothing. To this day I wish we would have told the man the kitten died under anesthesia so we wouldn't have to send it home with him...

Where do these people fit into your categories? I'd rate every last one of them as John Q Public. But it doesn't matter if you're JQP or if you've been a breeder for 20 years. It doesn't matter if you make 6 figures or earn minimum wage to stay off the streets. What matters is how far you'll go to do the right thing for you, your family and your pet, and how much you're willing to learn along the way.

Misskiwi - very well said!

 A victim of my profession.  Rubrics are typically arranged in education with the higher number being the better or more advanced demonstration of the skill set being evaluated. 
 
As to the fractions, I live in the world of ranges and fractions.  And there is a range in which folks function.  As you move from one catagory to the next, your skill set looks different.  I think a fractional score is one way to denote an individual has attributes from both catagories.
 
Ratings such as this are not really static.  I am closer to a 3 when considering a specific breed (belgians and dobermans) or behavior strategy, than I am to another (toy breeds).  For example,  I feel pretty confident in my ability to offer training exercises and suggestions.  I feel pretty shakey in my ability (at this moment) to whelp a litter and deal with a complication.

No I am not trying to categorize the levels of the human-animal bond.  Your experiences are rich in this area but I am trying to understand responsibility boundaries between dog professionals and JQP.  What I am asking/discussing is whether the professional dog world should do more in informing, teaching, and influencing JQP.    I often see on this forum a bashing of JQP and often think that maybe the person doesn't know any better or was misguided by professional advice.  In this thread the OP presented an article on early spay/neuter that said for large breed dogs early spaying will cause a dog to become taller.  I did an early spay on a large breed, the dog got taller, and now I have concerned for the health of that dog in its old age.  Likewise for a dog that was not spayed, am I expected to know health ramifications?  Today, I do not think I was fully prepared or had full knowledge at the time to approve the procedure to spay in one case and ignore spaying in another case.  Whose fault is it, JQP or dog professionals.  Where did my responsibility end and should the dog professional do more?

ADDED:  I use my situation as an example but I think it applies to a larger general situation.  I think the dog professional world can/should do more.

I don't think its anyones fault. When you spayed your dog 8 years ago, there was no thought to the ramifications. I didn't know about the failure of the long bones to close until just recently. And it doesn't happen in all dogs either. Almost every dog I know has been spayed/neutered before puberty, and only one (my parents shephard) is any taller than expected. Its not something that happens every time. My dad actually asked me if he should wait to neuter Chance, because he wanted chance to reach his "full potential" Twenty years ago, people thought neutering stunted the dogs, not made them larger!

There is nobody at fault for not knowing the ramifications of the decision you made 8 years ago. Each and every person that comes through the door has a different reason for wanting or not wanting to spay/neuter their pet. It is up to the individual owner to ask questions and voice their concerns with their veterinarian, breeder or other professional and get their questions answered. Even then, every single one of those "expert opinions" is going to be different, so who's right???

My point is being slightly missed.  If the information is available and regardless if the info is right or wrong, current thinking or past thinking, who is responsible for getting that info to the decision maker?  JQP or the dog professional?

BOTH...

It is the job of professionals (particularly veterinarians) to provide the necessary information for good decision making.

It is the job of the dog owner to get the information they need to make their own decisions. Because the dog is the owners property, it is eventually up to them to make their own decisions as to what they will or won't do with their dog.

Agreed, JQP presents or is presented an issue and the dog professionals shares all knowledge, current thinking, old thinking, debates, risk, personal recommendations, referals, etc. and JQP get/receives, assimilates, filters, and develops trust in the information to approve/disapprove or accept/disregard…in a perfect world.   
 
If it is the job of the dog owner to get the information, the dog owner has to know the information exist.  If he doesn#%92t know the information exist, how can the dog owner ask.  If the dog professional doesn#%92t present or is not presented, how can the knowledge be shared.  Don#%92t you agree the dog professional has more influence over the decision to be made because the dog professional has the information and can control what information is presented to the dog owner?  Don#%92t you then agree that the dog professional has more responsibility in the way a dog is cared for and I can also add, trained? 

ORIGINAL: DPU

If it is the job of the dog owner to get the information, the dog owner has to know the information exist. 

Information is everywhere. The dog owner shouldn't have to know the information exists... there is more information out there than I could ever want to know about every topic imaginable. I just need to have enough of an interest to look for it.

Those who are interested will ask... Those who are in a position to educate will take advantage of opportunities presented to them.  For example: I'm here because I enjoy acquiring and sharing information... its one of several reasons I aspire to becoming a veterinarian. But not everyone wants to hear what i have to say... thats why I tend to seek out places like this forum where I can not only learn from those more experienced than me, but I can also share what I have learned...

Let me point out that the article referenced in this thread is dated 4/25/2000 and is from the International Veterinary Information Services.  The date is from the time or close to the time I was making my decision to spay and the magazine is not a publication that JQP would peruse.  Also, you stated in a previous post "I didn't know about the failure of the long bones to close until just recently”.  I don't why you needed to know but I needed to know at the time I was making my decision.  Whether or not it would have influenced my decision, I do not know because it was not presented to me.

Let us also assume that that the majority of people in the group JQP, isn't as dog savvy as you or anyone else on this forum.  I apologize if I mistakenly grouped you in the JQP category when in fact you maybe a dog professional since you aspire to be a veterinarian.  Lastly, I would not be responding to you if I did not want to hear what you have to say.

I ask again. 

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  Don't you agree the dog professional has more influence over the decision to be made because the dog professional has the information and can control what information is presented to the dog owner? 
  
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  Don't you then agree that the dog professional has more responsibility in the way a dog is cared for? 

If I take your questions as stated... then my answer is absolutely yes to both questions. The people with the knowledge and information to share should do their best to share as much as possible whenever possible, and allow the owner to make decisions for their pets.

The majority of people don't make decisions about spay and neuter, they either breed them, or listen to their vet and get them spayed/neutered. There are very few responsibly owned intact dogs outside of the show and working dog sector.

My opinion is that your vet wasn't "experimenting" with the two sisters. Wires got crossed somewhere, and you didn't get the message that both puppies should be spayed. Miscommunication happens all the time in the vet clinic. Its an unfortunate side effect of owners who are afraid to ask questions and vets who are too busy to make sure they don't have questions.

I'm curious, and please don't take it as a personal attack because its not, but why didn't you ask your vet why he spayed one dog and not the other?? I would have been curious about weather or not both dogs should be spayed...

I can't quite agree with that.  When I placed a pet quality cocker I did not want that animal bred.  He/she was not breeding quality.  As such, I charged a spay/neuter deposit equal to the amount of the highest vet in town which was either sent to the vets office upon notification of spueter, or refunded to the owners.  My  show quality pups were only placed with folks who would show and finish and I knew that they wouldn't breed a dog that didn't met the proper standards, nor would they breed without proper genetic testing.
 
When I place a foster pup now, it is also on a spay/nueter contract with a deposit again...not as large because most of the rescues won't go along with that, but I still get that deposit.  In the US the last thing we need are more puppies.

Blizzard and Drizzle are good examples to point to in a discussion of spay/natural and early/late spay.  They are sisters, have dramatic appearance differences, and are aging differently.  I have explained the circumstances of why one is spay and why one is not.  I have made accommodations to be a responsible dog owner of a natural female.  I want to add to this discussion that I foster up to 3 dogs for a rescue and on the application and in the interview I stated that Drizzle is natural and the reasons why.  There was no lecture or any discussion concerning Drizzle's status.  Let me also add that last year I adopted another Great Dane, Petro from a rescue.  Same response as the other rescue and this rescue gave me an intact male. 

You asked me why I did not ask my vet why she spayed one dog and not the other.  As I said in the other thread, in order to get Drizzle from the breeder, I made a handshake agreement that the breeder can mate Drizzle and have the pups, save one.  I told this to my vet of over 25 years.  Now that 8 years have passed I intend to ask her why she never brought it up.  I also intend to ask about the early spay of Blizzard…in a non confronting way.  Let me also remind you that 2 other rescue groups did not lecture me on the pros of spaying Drizzle.  Since everything was hunky-doory in my house, I did not think of bringing up the subject. 

I have stated that I think that the professional dog community is not doing enough to inform and teach JQP.  You have stated in another thread that JQP (that excludes the dog savvy) are stupid and lazy.  I prefer calling them uninformed and because they are uninformed, focus on other things and spend their resources differently.  If the answer is yes to both of my questions then the professional dog community is charged with the responsibility to inform and shares guardianship of all dogs.  You have sighted several examples of why the professional dog community falls short,

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  Wires got crossed somewhere, and you didn't get the message that both puppies should be spayed. Miscommunication happens all the time in the vet clinic. Its an unfortunate side effect of owners who are afraid to ask questions and vets who are too busy to make sure they don't have questions.

What do you think are other reasons?

Glenda, I am not what you are disagreeing to, but your post is very admirable.