early spaying and neutering

ORIGINAL: DPU

I do hope my question on a daily check for pyometritis does not get overlooked.

There is no daily check other than what you've already mentioned. A person skilled in ultrasound might be able to check the uterus for the cystic hyperplasia that predisposes dogs to bacterial infection.

Here is an article you should read if you haven't yet:http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/112009.htm

You speak of your personal experience, and I speak from mine. "Never let the sun set on a pyometra" is what we're taught. This disease, along with GDV, are the only diseases so serious that you are REQUIRED to do immediate surgery or risk the death of your patient. I see mammary tumors all the time, and every single dog has either been intact or spayed after a couple litters.

Like mrv says, its a personal decision, and if you decide to keep your bitches intact in the future, thats fine. But don't go blaming your dogs poor health on what veterinarians recommend. We have more than enough good reasons to believe spaying a dog is better than leaving them intact.

Mrv, from your postings on the forum I have respect for you as a professional behaviorist and your dog knowledge.  I ask a specific question on how pyo can be checked daily and you responded that average folks don#%92t have the desire or intent to provide the kind of monitoring you feel would necessary to check.  The health of my dogs are important to me so the desire and intent exist.  As an average folk I want to know the kind of monitoring necessary to check.  What is the reason you are dancing around my questions?
 

Not intentionally dancing, just missed the phrasing that indicated you wanted procedures for a daily check.
 
I am not sure such a protocal actually exists.  But monitoring my current intact bitch has been checking discharge, watching male dog interest in her and a sniff of my own.  I watch for changes in behavior and increased licking of the vaginal area.
 
Just to clarify,,,, I am a human behaviorist (ie. folks with disabilities attending public schools).

Please don't pigeonhole me as being for or against spay/neuter or early vs late.  I consider myself an average folk or JQP who listens to the advice of professionals first and then secondly reads articles.  In another thread I've explained my home situation and the circumstances that created it.  I went into that thread as a relief from another thread and posted a "by the way this is my experience”.  The comments in that thread have made me question the advice I have received.  I have real life observations, health concerns, and I am looking for answers.  I expect the professional dog community to give me clear, concise, and undisputed care instructions to prolong my pets lives. 

Callie and Misskiw167 response about daily detections for pyo differs from mrv who indicated there is one.  Can someone reconcile for me.

Misskiw167, in reference to your link, if I was a vet I probably would understand all the technical terms used.  The problem with a lay person reading such an article is that you get the gist of what is said by you can't gauge the complexity or severity.

Added.  I wrote the above before I saw mrv last post.  Do you see why I persist in my questions?  By the way I am the youngest of 8 brothers so my life experience is to keep asking and asking the same question over and over until I am heard.  Sorry if that bothers anyone.

These folks often are the grocery store dog food, annual boosters, minimal exercise and training.
 
my typical clients

ORIGINAL: dvet

These folks often are the grocery store dog food, annual boosters, minimal exercise and training.

my typical clients

With respect to you, they would not be typical if they were educated and advised properly.

DPU  I would respectfully point out that folks who spend time on such boards, read and research to improve their knowledge and rescue dogs are not JQP.
 
As to educating JQP,  I have met very few vets who do not attempt to educate their clients but typically reserve that information based on the often deaf ears on to which much information typically falls.  As an example, I would suggest an examination in any waiting room for the number of over weight dogs.  I know most vets will talk about weight management but it often is ignored completely.  I do also see vets who will go out of their way to make knowledgable owners partners in their dog's health care.
 
I guess you would say I spend alot of time with JQP.  I teach dog obedience for a local kennel club.  I have been doing that for about 15 years now.  These folks are a step above JQP because they seek out training.  Some few, usually 5 or so, from the typcial 60 stick around beyond puppy and beginner.
 
Many JQP folks turn dogs in at the pound when they get too big, the wrong color for the carpet or continue the problem behaviors the people who owned them, taught them.
 
No offense taken nor meant.  Just a different observation
 
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

Callie and Misskiw167 response about daily detections for pyo differs from mrv who indicated there is one.  Can someone reconcile for me.

Misskiw167, in reference to your link, if I was a vet I probably would understand all the technical terms used.  The problem with a lay person reading such an article is that you get the gist of what is said by you can't gauge the complexity or severity.

You stated that you knew to watch for lethargy, fever, discharge and other signs of acute illness. This is, to the best of my knowledge, the only thing you can do daily. You won't know your dog has a pyometra until the bacterial infection has gone beyond the uterus and begins to infect her entire system. This is why pyometra is so dangerous.

I'll try to summarize the link for you. The merck veterinary manual is often used by rescue-oriented people on other boards, so I like to refer to it when it has a good article. Everything else I was able to find were research articles that even I had trouble reading. Pyometra in old dogs is usually due to overgrowth of the secretory glands in the uterine lining. The glands are stimulated by the hormone progesterone, which is secreted by the ovaries. When dogs are intact their entire lives, but never have puppies, the glands continue to secrete their secretions, and can become overgrown. This provides a nutrient rich place for bacteria to live, and during every heat cycle a dogs cervix opens to the outside world, inviting bacteria to come in. Usually the bodies immune system is more than capable of controlling the bacteria, but with all the extra secretions to live in, the bacteria get out of control. Pyometra can result.

The treatment for pyometra is to either remove the uterus and ovaries, or to get rid of the infection and breed the bitch on her next heat cycle. Without breeding the dog, 70% of them will get pyometra again, probably due to the overactive glands.

The overactive glands, before it becomes pyometra, is called Cystic endometrial hyperplasia. If you take your dog to an experienced veterinarian, they might be able to determine if your dog has cystic endometrial hyperplasia. If she does, then I would imagine the veterinarian would recommend that she be spayed before pyometra has an opportunity to develop. This is, to the best of my knowledge, the only way to determine if a dog is at risk prior to the actual event. Knowing how the hormones work... I just assume every old dog that has never been bred would have this problem and be predisposed to pyometra. It doesnt mean she'll get it, just that she's at risk.

Does that help? If you have specific questions or if I didn't explain well enough, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up to explain better.

Mrv, why can#%92t there be only be 2 categories, dog professionals and JQP.  And then within JQP a segregation between those that are educated by dog professionals and those that need to be educated by dog professionals that persist and persevere so their words don#%92t go on deaf ears.  I says this because your definitions gives dog professionals the excuse to give up on educating and blame them for all the dog woos that exist.  At the same time by your definition of JQP, JQP has an excuse for being the source of dog issues.  As you can tell from me I want the dog professionals to do a whole lot more, a whole lot more in making owners and pets happier.
 
mrv, your weight example is not a good one because how can we give credence to a condition that a lot lot lot of people have.  Obesity is a different story.

John Q Public is often just plain not interested in a lot of specifics about dog health, etc.  If they were, they'd probably be active on a dog's board.  People can HAVE dogs and not really care beyond picking up food at the grocery store or when they absolutely MUST (kicking and screaming and complaining bout the cost) take their dog to the vet.  My folks like animals -- but our dogs were rarely vetted, and in particular the last one (who was an absolutely wonderful 'best dog ever') had heart problems that they never treated and he died when he was only 8. 
 
My mother consistently tells me I should "put to sleep" a dog we spend any money on for vet bills at all -- and I get an enormous amount of hassle about it.  She "likes dogs" - but they are JUST 'dogs' no big deal and of no extraneous interest.
 
Education?  I've tried.  She doesn't care. 
 
Some people are receptive to education, some aren't. 

Thank you for taking your precious time to explain in detail, sincerely thank you.  As you stated I know what to look for if the condition exist so therefore I did some internet searches these past few days.  I also know now the cause, its progress, and if left alone-its effects.  I did read that early detection can be from a smell.  I rejected reading articles like you referenced because they did fly-bys at supersonic speed.  I am rescue-oriented person so it not fair to say that those people would all understand the article as it was intended.  What you have added to my knowledge is the condition of cystic endometrial hyperplasia which precludes the infections.  Vet visit time.
 
Do you see why I want the dog professionals to do more.  In 8 years of twice a year checkups and other incidental visits, my vet said nothing to me!  PLUS, Drizzle has seen other vets for one reason or another.
 
Thanks again.
 
 

callie,

1st thank you for the great advise on the anit SA jacket.  Has been working out great for Marvin.

2nd, If you were to invert your view of JQP, would that be an improvement?  For every owner and their dog and depending on where they live, isn't there a compulsion law or ordinance that requires a vet visit.  JQP has to face the dog professional, and on a regular basis.  Isn't this an opportunity to educate and change things.

DPU  I guess I have three distinctions:  Professional types (which include many of the folks who do competive dog sport), the educated owners and JQP.  I started out JQP and transitioned to what I am now.  A knowledgable owner who continually looks for more knowledge on any topic related to dogs.

Within these groups, there are differing levels of awareness, committment and knowledge.  I have friends and teachers in the herding community who are far less "coddling" of their dogs than I am of mine.  That's ok, they come from and live in a different place than me.  I know some JQP owners who managed to do it right without ever reading a book, taking a class or checking out a discussion board.

I know that most folks do not want the level of information and committment you are interested in achieving.  I now teach the advanced class for my kennel club, I get folks who stay with me over a number of years, and those who only last a session or two.  I offer everything I can to every person in my classes.  I no longer expect that I will reach them all.  Those that do ask and linger and try, they get all the ask for and more (often my personal soapboxes).

I dont give up.  I spend time on this board and I spend time in classes.  I spend time with spectators and dog events.  I just have changed my level of optimism over all.
 
respectfully, I do think obesity is a relavent example.... if not, then lets talk about annual vaccines.

I'm a former teacher -- the reality is you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink ... and all the permutations of that.
 
You can't 'force' someone to want to learn or to accept it with good grace and the more you try to legislate it or engineer it the worse it will go awry in reality.
 
Because somewhere along the line it will get screwed up.  Take vaccines for example -- several years ago they began to teach in vet schools that if vets began to 'require' people to do annual vaccinations it would result in better veterinary care -- people would HAVE to bring their dogs in regularly, etc.
 
Vet care IS better than it used to be -- vets generally do a great job of keeping up and helping people do more and better for their animals. 
 
However -- it's ... as ALL things legislated/pushed/marketed are -- a double-edged sword.  WE now have this huge increase in vaccinosis and general immune-mediated problems because dogs are over-vaccinated and over-medicated (while still being poorly bred -- we haven't legislated THAT very well at all). 
 
But the guy who steadfastly says "You can't MAKE me pay all that money to take my dog to a vet" won't.  (and he's probably got high cholesterol and wouldn't watch his own heart health anyway either)
 
We live in the Wal-Mart generation -- I want it cheaper, I want more choice and I want to do it when I want to do it or not at all.  People are going to be interested in what they want to be.  And often people aren't interested until they HAVE a reason. 
 
I can't tell you how many people I've sent to messageboards to 'learn to be more hands-on' with their dogs AFTER they have come to me for help with IMHA or demodectic mange or other such things.  Or people who have bounced off my website and have said 'well my 2 year old pomeranian mostly goes on her pee pee pads/litterbox or usually asks to go out (pick one) but the book from Wal-Mart said she'd be crate-trained in a few weeks.'
 
They read what they want to read and do what they want to do.  One of the big things a website like this CAN do is for folks to get along, treat each other very well and make it easy for a newbie to jump in and ask a stupid question without fear of reprisal or without feeling like "everyone always argues there - I don't DARE say anything". 
 
People are incredibly individual and they're only interested in what they want to be interested in.  And often the world is very judgmental and it's heck to pay if you aren't interested in what everyone ELSE thinks you should be interested in (like my mother who thinks I 'waste' my money on sick dogs, or my neighbors who look down on me because I'm not outside 24/7 on the weekends 'taking care of'my lawn and why would ANYONE have a dog who might kill the grass!! eeek!!
 
We are who we are and we'll garner more support for our opinons by being nice than by being condescending or nasty.
 
But by being patient and sometimes a word here and there we make progress.
 
A year and 2 months ago my father (age 82 then) told me he didn't WANT a computer because all people do with them is write letters!  I kept talking.  He got brave and got his own computer in the spring and today his major topic of conversation with me was whether he was going to use the money he got for Christmas on a Microsoft 6000 laser mouse/keyboard package or if he was going to go with Logitech.  I laughingly told him "Dad -- you are about to cross-over into being a GEEK!!!  I'm PROUD of you!!"
 
But he still doesn't feel about animals the way I do.  The chasm is a bit less wide now ... but ... it's still there.  But I'm still talking ...
 
But bottom line, mrv is right -- there are your 3 'distinctions' -- but where someone IS between those very likely is dependant on their own personality type, their income, how much they love their dog, and how much their own personality will allow them to change.
 

Mrv, what category are you in, I can#%92t tell, 1 or 2.  See when things aren#%92t simple you create gray areas and the opportunity to create excuses and point fingers.
 
Callie,  I hope you are not describing the tone of my posts as nasty and condescending.  If so I will take a step back and then come forward renewed.  You always give soo  much information that it is going to take of week of post to respond.  How do you do that so fast and maintain good English?
 
At this time I will address one of your points because it brought back a memory, plus I think you are clairvoyant because the same thing happened yesterday to some else on the forum.  I came to this forum because I was/am in desperate need of help in dealing with a SA dog.  Prior to coming here I contact my vet, breed rescue group, email networks, you know logical places.  Then while searching the internet to learn more about SA I came across the dog.com site.  I immediately created a new post, provided pictures of Marvin#%92s destructive behavior, and then waited for a response.  4 people responded and I thought this was great, wow (not being sarcastic).  With the info I received from all sources I developed a plan and have stuck to it for the past 3 months.  I then lurked in the behavior and training categories and came across one of those CM debates.  The two posters were nasty to each other by questioning one#%92s credentials and the other using the word ignorance quite often.  Me, I said how dare you put this in my face so I posted to stop the back and forth.  The one poster who left or got banned gave a civil response of butt out.  The other poster called me a nasty name, quickly edited the post to make it less nasty, and then changed the post one more time to make it civil.  After that I decided to leave the forum.  I PMed a poster that was very helpful with my SA problem and stated why I was leaving and asked if I can keep in touch to talk about Marvin.  I got no response.  So I took a step back and then came forward renewed.
 
No matter what you try you can#%92t initially control people but you can persevere to get your message out and just like with your father, the message sinks in.  Now from your post, gov officials regulated the dog owners to go to their vets.    Did you confirmed my previous post that the dog professionals messed up/missed an opportunity by over meds comments?
 
How did the "RE" change?