So what do we want here?

You know, for those of you trying to defend your actions against Ratsiciles with statements like "I was only trying to help"  "I was only trying to offer suggestions" and  "I only said something because I care about dogs"----

You may not have noticed, but you have failed spectacularly.  The poster in question has been deeply hurt, is not changing her course of action, and has left the board.  Well done.

Good point, Christina. If we encountered these kinds of results when training a dog, we'd probably re-evaluate our actions rather than defend them. If your dog was scared of you after a verbal correction would you blame the dog for being too sensitive or adjust your intensity to the situation and individual animal?

For some reason we don't think that people deserve the same respect and consideration that we give to our dogs.

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

Let me use an example from another board to make my point. I do not agree that if a poster doesn't ask a question no advice should be given. It may be that the advice should be given more discretly, but I would not agree that one should turn a blind eye.

My example:

I belong to a parrot board because I also have parrots. Someone posted her newly organized bird room because she was very pleased with her work. It was a very nice bird room - well organized, good light, etc. But her cockatiel cages were far too small for the birds.

What should have been done? She didn't ask for input on her cockatiel cages.

Paula

What should have been done? She didn't ask for input on her cockatiel cages.

A good rule of thumb is to think about how would you like to be approached if the situation were reversed. Would you want someone to tell you "those cages are far too small!" Or would something along the lines of "Your room is lovely. I love how organized it is [never hurt to find a positive] I think the only thing I would change would be to enlarge the cages to make it a healthier space for the birds." Then, a link to a site that has cage size recommendations would be helpful.

Try to offer advice in a way that shows you are trying to be helpful and considerate - not bossy and critical.

So you agree that even though unsolicited, mention of the cage size would be warranted?

Paula

ORIGINAL: Benedict

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

As I've already said, I prefer blunt spoken people. I would happilly retain a trainer who was critical as long as he/she was competent. I have no problem with a big stick as long as there's carrot somewhere along the line.

So I guess the answer is; I would.
Paula

So you agree that even though unsolicited, mention of the cage size would be warranted?

Yeah, that's tricky. I think it depends on the board. This place used to be a good place for *constructive* criticism. "Yeah - that's a great technique, this is what works for me..." But lately, even a mild suggestion can quickly degenerate into a smack-down. You have to know your audience. If it's a particualrly volatile or sensitive board, a PM may be in order.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

You know, for those of you trying to defend your actions against Ratsiciles with statements like "I was only trying to help"  "I was only trying to offer suggestions" and  "I only said something because I care about dogs"----

You may not have noticed, but you have failed spectacularly.  The poster in question has been deeply hurt, is not changing her course of action, and has left the board.  Well done.

 
It was her choice to leave.  No one told her to leave, no one called her "stupid" or a "bad person".  She didn't get 100% agreement in her post, which IMO is what she was looking for.  She had many options available to her other than leaving the board.  She chose that one, and made us all wrong in the process based on our reactions to everything she's shared.   Hopefully she learned something, whether or not what she learned has anything to do with any of the situations she posted about, is another question. 

ORIGINAL: Benedict

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

 
You know what?  If I needed a "come to Jesus" meeting from an experienced trainer because I clearly don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to dogs...and yet I clearly THINK I do...I honestly think that would be one of the most loving things that could be done for me.  It's much easier to write people off and make them wrong for who they are in the world than to actually step into a risky place and challenge them to do what needs to be done! 

So  it's not so cut and dried. There are no rules such as (I forget which poster to credit this to) not giving unsolicited advice. And there are no garauntees that if you phrase your advice carefully it would be better received. So, like I said earlier in the discussion to Gina, you give your advice then, IMO, it gets taken or not.

With regards to the parrot board scenario, a number of people pointed out that the cages were too small with expressions like "wow, those cages look kind of small..." and the OP got upset and left. On the one hand, I think such information should have been part of, like you said, praise of the room (which was quite nice), and I kind of think it should have been said in p.m., but for the sake of lurkers, I think it probably needed to be said on the forum as well.  The OP's feelings were hurt - she was showing us her room because she was proud of her hard work - and people noticed the cage sizes (I did too , but I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure how it would be received). It's messy. There's no easy way is there?

JMO
Paula

ORIGINAL: paulaedwina

So  it's not so cut and dried. There are no rules such as (I forget which poster to credit this to) not giving unsolicited advice. And there are no garauntees that if you phrase your advice carefully it would be better received. So, like I said earlier in the discussion to Gina, you give your advice then, IMO, it gets taken or not.

With regards to the parrot board scenario, a number of people pointed out that the cages were too small with expressions like "wow, those cages look kind of small..." and the OP got upset and left. On the one hand, I think such information should have been part of, like you said, praise of the room (which was quite nice), and I kind of think it should have been said in p.m., but for the sake of lurkers, I think it probably needed to be said on the forum as well.  The OP's feelings were hurt - she was showing us her room because she was proud of her hard work - and people noticed the cage sizes (I did too , but I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure how it would be received). It's messy. There's no easy way is there?

JMO
Paula

 
When in doubt, employ the "sandwich" technique:  Praise, followed by constructive criticism, followed by praise. 
 
 

ORIGINAL: paulaedwina

ORIGINAL: Benedict

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

As I've already said, I prefer blunt spoken people. I would happilly retain a trainer who was critical as long as he/she was competent. I have no problem with a big stick as long as there's carrot somewhere along the line.

So I guess the answer is; I would.
Paula

BLUNT I have no issue with. My agility trainer is blunt...I think she's outstanding.

What I am getting at here is taking a dog to a trainer and saying "my dog grabs food out of my hands, can you help me with that?"

So the trainer takes a background and asks what the dog gets fed, and this owner says "Pedigree"...

so the trainer says "Well NO WONDER it grabs food out of your hand if you are feeding it that poisonous trash! Your dog is obviously starved for nutrients! If you don't even care enough about your dog to feed it good food, I am surprised you care enough to hire a trainer!"

That honestly does follow the pattern of many, many discussions I have seen here. Is there really not a better way to get the message across?

ORIGINAL: paulaedwina

ORIGINAL: Benedict

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

As I've already said, I prefer blunt spoken people. I would happilly retain a trainer who was critical as long as he/she was competent. I have no problem with a big stick as long as there's carrot somewhere along the line.

So I guess the answer is; I would.
Paula

 
Same here, if it helps me be a better dog owner, and helps me do what's best for my animals, not me, then I honestly don't care how it's said or what else is said along with it.  Maybe I just have the New Jersey attitude and tough skin, who knows! I have to say though how surprised I am at how sensitive people can be. 
 
 I am of the belief that when you are responsible for another life, whether it's human or animal, that sometimes their well-being needs to come before your feelings, or even the feelings of someone who you suspect might be putting another  life in harms way, whether it's intentional or unintentional.

I'm hesitant to even stick my toe in here because I have handily managed to stay out of all the drama on this forum of late (yes, my PM box has been blissfully free of both mod messages and harassment from other members!).

But I have found that a good way to go about giving advice, even unsolicited advice, is to just ask more questions. Why did you choose to do it that way? Why did you choose that piece of equipment? How have you gone about training thus far and what have the results been? I'll type up a whole big long post which I then realize is preachy and annoying (though yes, those ones still slip through from time to time) and then realize that before I get all up on my high horse, I need more information. That's the internet for ya. We're all going on very partial teeny little snippets of information. A lot of the hurt that goes on on the internet is of the "you don't know me/you don't know my situation" variety. And that can be avoided by just asking for more info. And sometimes the socratic method can be utilized and you never have to do anything but just ask more pointed questions and consider carefully the answers and ask the follow-up questions that those answers beg and let the OP lead themselves to the answers.

But, I'm on LiveJournal and y'all don't know wank and butthurt until you've spent some time thereabouts. This is small potatoes, believe me.

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

 
The first puppy kindergarten class we went to with Tasha the trainer was pretty darned rude. She definately informed us that we shouldn't have taken in a stray puppy because we knew nothing AND the puppy was Chow/GSD. She basically called everyone in the class who chose dogs that weren't purebred herding or sporting breeds stupid, and told the couple that adopted littermates from the pound they should return one of them.
 
We did stay, because at the time puppy classes were not easy to come by and the methods the school used were positive only. We disregarded much of the information.
 
Funny thing is here it is seven years later. The littermates from the pound managed to do OK--they never got a solid recall, but they are loved and cared for. Certainly better off than being returned to the pound at five months old. Tasha our Chow/Golden Retriever is doing just fine. She's far from perfect but is a happy dog that brings us much pleasure. And the trainer.....well she's no longer dog training. She's working at the feed store.