So what do we want here?

ORIGINAL: Benedict

ORIGINAL: paulaedwina

ORIGINAL: Benedict

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

As I've already said, I prefer blunt spoken people. I would happilly retain a trainer who was critical as long as he/she was competent. I have no problem with a big stick as long as there's carrot somewhere along the line.

So I guess the answer is; I would.
Paula

BLUNT I have no issue with. My agility trainer is blunt...I think she's outstanding.

What I am getting at here is taking a dog to a trainer and saying "my dog grabs food out of my hands, can you help me with that?"

So the trainer takes a background and asks what the dog gets fed, and this owner says "Pedigree"...

so the trainer says "Well NO WONDER it grabs food out of your hand if you are feeding it that poisonous trash! Your dog is obviously starved for nutrients! If you don't even care enough about your dog to feed it good food, I am surprised you care enough to hire a trainer!"

That honestly does follow the pattern of many, many discussions I have seen here. Is there really not a better way to get the message across?

Benedict,

Clearly the example you give is your point of view. You asked  who would use a trainer "who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here" and I said I would. There is a reason I've been hanging around here since this board was called I-dog. So maybe the kind of communication I like is different from the kind of communication you like, but it is not necessary to make a quality statement about either. We are different people.

I can't speak to your highly personalized example because it is colored by your POV. So short of crawling into your brain.....

Paula

I have a question..

How many of the people on here would continue to use a trainer who judged your competency at owning a dog as harshly as we judge each other here?

 
This is just a guess, but I think I'm more sensitive/easily offended than Paula, so I wouldn't work with a trainer who was treated me harshly, even if I trusted what she was saying.  I also tend to give careful consideration to what I post but it makes sense that people who are less sensitive wouldn't see the need to sugarcoat things as much. We all view things thru our own personal lenses and for a multitude of reasons, those lenses are very different.  I think if everyone errs on the side of diplomacy and tact, then we wouldn't be having quite so many problems.

But I have found that a good way to go about giving advice, even unsolicited advice, is to just ask more questions. Why did you choose to do it that way? Why did you choose that piece of equipment?

Interesting. To continue my parrot example, one or two posters did take this approach. They asked the dimensions of the cages, whether the cockatiels didn't get along (since they were being housed separately), etc. Thing is, the poster was still hurt by the criticism. It's a two way thing and it's messy.

BTW I write fic - you're right; critique from your beta can be really hard. But your beta is like sand in your oyster - the irritation that will produce a pearl. []

Paula

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

So you agree that even though unsolicited, mention of the cage size would be warranted?

Yeah, that's tricky. I think it depends on the board. This place used to be a good place for *constructive* criticism. "Yeah - that's a great technique, this is what works for me..." But lately, even a mild suggestion can quickly degenerate into a smack-down. You have to know your audience. If it's a particualrly volatile or sensitive board, a PM may be in order.

 
But... a PM can blow up into a smack-down as well.  On another board I'm on, a PM was taken public and it turned into a 4 page thread that had to be closed.  Why?  Apparently the suggestion wasn't appreciated and the poster chose to publically voice her dislike of the content.  Both posters involved stayed, but my point is that, as one very smart person told me, a private message is only as private as either party wants to make it.

Paula...I respect your opinion on that...actually your posts are some of the ones I respect most. And yes, I see that my example was from my point of view, which of course it's going to be. That said..I was giving an example of a pattern more than anything else...and my point is this: It is easy to be critical on this board, whether fairly or unfairly, because at the end of the day we can switch off the computer.

I am horrifically blunt when I see something I don't agree with. I am not particularly tolerant of abject stupidity, I get annoyed by little things easily and I would prefer a forum situation where everyone could just say what they think and everyone else would be mature enough not to take it personally. Given that I don't see that happening anytime soon, I am wondering what the best way is of reaching some kind of manageable middle ground.

For the record, when I asked the question I was playing Devil's Advocate, because I would use that trainer too if it made me a better dog owner.

Lol yeah Paula, it doens't always work, I know! Sometimes people are sort of rarin' for a fight anyway and even the most innocent of questions can get taken the wrong way. Or if they're being attacked by other people on the thread in a less productive way then they're defensive already and an innocent question is taken the wrong way even if you personally weren't the one attacking. Human interactions are messy. But as a general rule I find that "acting dumb" and asking a poster to "talk more about why you decided to..." or "can you tell us how you arrived at the decision to..." is a lot better than "ZOMG ANIMAL ABUSE HOW COULD YOU HORRIBLE PERSON !!!11!" even if that is really what you are thinking (and believe me, I have thought that on occaision).

But I have some some absolutely AMAZING wanksplosions on LiveJournal and we've got a long way to go yet if we want to compete with that! Entire communities go down in blazes of glory. Let's not let that happen here, 'kay?

Cakana,

I think you're right; some people are more sensitive about things than others, and our experiences inform our sensitivities. However, I do think there is a difference between sensitive and defensive. Sensitive people can be reached through diplomacy, defensive people cannot be reached through diplomacy. Defensive people take ever critique as a condemnation. If you know any defensive folks, you know what I mean.  For whatever reason, criticism carries huge weight with them and makes them fight, and often makes them blind to the message - regardless of how it is put.

Anyway; you are right that I am not sensitive to critical instructors. I'm very driven, so if you can get me to the level I'm reaching for I don't care how you deliver the message (well no beatings). Eg. If an instructor said to me about my riding, "why are you wasting my time? I know you can do better than that. You're being lazy. Look, if you can't pull it together today quit wasting my time." That would make me decide - like Yoda says - to do or do not. It would focus me. Why? Because he said he knows I could do better than that, and he's challenging me to it. It gives me confidence where I guess it might break somebody else down. I thrive under such structure.

If, on the other hand, you just accepted whatever I gave you and I could do your class in my sleep, then it's not that important to me either.

So, for example, when I'm beta-ing someone's writing, if I tell you it's excellent, rest assured I'm not blowing smoke up your butt. If I had a problem with it I would tell you. "Mel, this is lazy. You're clearly in a hurry, there's not detail in this story. Take your time and write like I know you can write.".

So I think you are correct; people are different and flourish under different conditions, and their expreiences inform how they advise others.

Paula

I do believe I have never before heard the terms "wank" and "butthurt" as they relate to a flame war, but those terms sure made me laugh!!!!!

If a post does not have a question mark, no advice is sought. If the situation appears to some as offering potential problems that absolutely need to be adressed, we have other tools (PM, e-mail) to contact the poster before we publicly open what can become a huge can of worms,

 
Then it shouldn't have been posted here because this is a DISCUSSION board.  If you want to make statements and have them go unchallenged or uncommented on, that's what blogs are for.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

Yeah, that's tricky. I think it depends on the board. This place used to be a good place for *constructive* criticism. "Yeah - that's a great technique, this is what works for me..." But lately, even a mild suggestion can quickly degenerate into a smack-down. You have to know your audience. If it's a particualrly volatile or sensitive board, a PM may be in order.

I disagree with taking things to PM. When you post, your post is not only helping the OP, but it may be helping the five other people reading that thread and the 20 that come along later and find it in the archives when they#%92re searching for help.

For the record, when I asked the question I was playing Devil's Advocate, because I would use that trainer too if it made me a better dog owner.

Yes, but would someone who failed to treat people with respect and consider their point of view be able to do the same with your dog? I mainly wonder this because of a book I recently re-read by horse trainer Mark Rashid. He talks a lot about his quest to become a better trainer and the realization that you can't compartmentalize. If he wanted to communicate better and reduce conflict in his relationship with horses, he had to communicate better and reduce conflict in ALL aspects of his life - including relationships with people.

I'm not saying that a good trainer can't be firm. You are paying them to tell you what to do. But if that teacher is not respectful to you - perhaps they dismiss your concerns or ignore your input - then they may not be respectful to your dog. My riding trainer was strongly critical - but always respectful.

Yes, but would someone who failed to treat people with respect and consider their point of view be able to do the same with your dog?

 
If someone treated me like doo doo on their shoe and expected me to pay them for their input with my dog, my child, or my marriage? you can bet I would not make a second trip.
 
Respect is necessary, if I wanted to pay for abuse and degradation I'd hire a dominatrix. People who say they'd be fine with it...will have to excuse me if I snicker a bit at the thought of these "blunt independant" folks, taking a belittling from "anybody" let alone paying someone to do it. I think you all are selling yourself short...I don't think you'd take abuse without making it plain you did not appreciate being judged.
 
I think you'd at least strive to reach an understanding with said trainer as opposed to allowing it to happen with zero input from your end. I have every faith in that...actually.

If an instructor said to me about my riding, "why are you wasting my time? [size=3]I know you can do better than that.[/size] You're being lazy. Look, if you can't pull it together today quit wasting my time."

 
Paula...I see some encouragement/positivity in this statement...and I bolded it. What is missing on this forum lately...is said encouragement, which keeps a post, IMO from being negative and actually lends it some "cowboy up". The statement I highlighted...seems to come from someone who knows you well enough to KNOW that you can in fact...do better. There is a comfort level in the above statement that is not exsistant on the forum between most members.
 
Remove the bolded statement and re read...the statement seems much more combative and unfriendly, esp if delivered from a person you do not know well...or even met for the very first time that day.

its sad we cant keep PMs private.... i guess i am the naive one to assume that if i sent someone a PM that it would indeed stay private.. but its up to the reciever to keep it that way. and yes i believe whole heartedly that if you dont want it read then dont write it.
the block feature is nice but..... wasteful. even if i disagree with someone or think they're the biggest jerk to walk the planet... i STILL want to hear their opinion. if their opinion is misguided (opinions are formed on the facts that are given after all) then i try to correct that.
for example.... someone - not naming names - tried to chap my rear because i gave my cat to a friend because the cat kept attacking the new dog. this person came right out and blasted me for doing that. the thread was not about me and my dog and cat situation. it was about someone who was worried about a new dog and cat getting along. i didnt give any more details other than to say "be careful, this is what happened, this almost happened and this was the result" .... but because i said that i was suddenly in the spotlight for rehoming a cat "for my want of a dog" [8|]  Despite the other cats not having a problem with dogs, and his trouble making cat never showing a dislike for dogs until this ONE came along.... i was still bad. so i should have taken the dog back to the original owner who was going to get rid of it anyway because it was too large?
i wanted to put them on ignore because it wasnt the first time this person singled me out in a thread that wasnt mine because i posted a past experience. but what a waste... we disagreed a couple of times... but many more times we've agreed (whether or not it was stated doesnt matter)
in another thread i was blasted because i said a crate, chain and kennel were the same if the dog was confined to it constantly... some person got it in their head that i thought all dogs should be aloud to roam around free with no restraints. no where in my post did i say that.... my point was confining and ignoring an animal is the same no matter what device you use. even though i repeated that several times i was still missunderstood so i gave up and left the thread.... why bother when people are just going to twist your words?
i save the ignore button for all out aggression and name calling or stalking... which hasnt ever been a problem for me in any forum, thankfully.

bottom line is we ALL know what tact is... we do a VERY good job of displaying it when we want to who we want..... so there is no excuse to make examples of newbies or lurkers or the seemingly ignorant.
why do we have so many lurkers? because they're terrified and yet they still want to learn....

My point in all of this was that it is possible to be critical whilst still remaining respectful. I did not make clear in my post that I would hire a critical trainer but not an abusive one. I backed out of training Ben to do something I really wanted to do with him because the trainer was abusive.

But blunt and critical I admire and that would not put me off.

So it IS possible to be critical without being abusive and nasty.