Forum "Moderation"

As a long time member, I guess what strikes me is how Glenda has really been moderating, or I guess I should say "a moderating influence" behind the scenes here for years.  She is probably the one single member whose influence has kept this place from imploding on several occasions that I remember.   []

My idea of being a moderator, and I was one for a couple of years, was to make sure people were civil to each other. No foul language, no personal attacks, etc.  Usually the Moderators stayed out of the major debates, so that the people debating the issues wouldn't think that the forum management was talking a side, and if you disagreed with that side, you might be in trouble as a member of the forum. I notice that some of the threads seem to be managed by the moderators, and to me, that stifles debate rather than encouraging it.

Sometimes, I disagree with you [], but you are right on the money here.  And, quite honestly, I have been getting some email that tells me that some folks are not too happy that a person so closely associated with the CM section is moderating the behavior threads.  Why?  For the reasons you cited.  Members should be able to say just about anything they like regarding a method, a food brand, how you clip nails, or why raw food sucks, or why kibble sucks, without fear.  It is only when you say that a member sucks for feeding that crap, or that someone is stupid for using a prong collar, that you cross the line of proper decorum.  The CM section was a bad idea from the get go - it acts to divide, not inform.  Without it, there would have been no need for a clicker thread.  All that really was ever needed was to stop the circular arguments, and the name calling.  It was NOT ok to call Glenda a "treat dispensing butler roommate", but it would have been fine to say "I wouldn't want to bribe my dog".  The latter statement is an inaccurate portrayal of what positive training really is, but at least is it a legitimate point for debate, not a personal attack.  If people could just see the diff, we could argue until the cows came home, but no one would have to feel that they were personally attacked.

amen to that!!

Janet, I love your signature!  The bones are so adorable.[]
[sm=backtotopic.gif]

thanks! i love it too. been smiling all evening, ever since kelly made it for me[][][]
 
ok, seriously: [sm=backtotopic.gif]

And, quite honestly, I have been getting some email that tells me that some folks are not too happy that a person so closely associated with the CM section is moderating the behavior threads.  Why?  For the reasons you cited.  Members should be able to say just about anything they like regarding a method, a food brand, how you clip nails, or why raw food sucks, or why kibble sucks, without fear.

As one of the people who emailed Anne about the new moderator of the behavior section, I feel that I should stand up and be counted. I am going to be frank with you folks. Ixas_girl has been on my "ignore" list for awhile **Content Removed** .  And I don't generally do the whole PM thing, **Content Removed**

Why put someone in charge of moderating a section who is so consistent about **Content Removed**? The point of this move seems to be to stop people from arguing at all, and that is not what an internet forum is about. It's a *forum*. You should be able to disagree.

The CM section was a bad idea from the get go - it acts to divide, not inform. Without it, there would have been no need for a clicker thread. All that really was ever needed was to stop the circular arguments, and the name calling.

This is also true. The forum is currently so political that the behavior and training sections are not really even about dogs anymore. Instead, they are about right v. left, played out in the form of CM Dittoheads v. Clicker Extremists. Separate CM and Clicker Training sections make this problem much worse, not better.

If the forum were about arguing about dogs (which is what I think it should be about and what it used to be about), then the CM people and the clicker people would be duking it out in the training and behavior problems sections, and everyone would be the better for it--everyone would learn something.

And in order to prevent the actual problem, which was (and is still) namecalling and personal attack, the small handful of CM devotees who started the personal attacks in the first place (the slingers of now-famous epithets like "treatdispensingbutlerroommate" and "Clicker Extremist") would have just been nailed by moderators for namecalling!

Instead, we find ourselves in a Bizzaro World, in which I have found myself getting red-inked for rude behavior because I said that I find a term like "Clicker Extremist" propagandizing and rude...

...and the actual rude and attacking remarks (which were rude and attacking, and do violate rule #3) remain.

This is not moderation. And I am certainly not going to participate, I have better things to do.

It was NOT ok to call Glenda a "treat dispensing butler roommate", but it would have been fine to say "I wouldn't want to bribe my dog". The latter statement is an inaccurate portrayal of what positive training really is, but at least is it a legitimate point for debate, not a personal attack. If people could just see the diff, we could argue until the cows came home, but no one would have to feel that they were personally attacked.

Again, Anne is right on the money. I had a lot of fun jibjabbing about dogs when the forum worked this way. It simply doesn't work that way anymore, and it is time for me to move on. I come here to argue with knowledgable folks about dogs, not protect dialectic thought in general. And since I actually haven't done what I want to do in quite some time, I have to stop wasting my time.

Signing off! Thanks for helping me with Laika, Anne. I know that this is more meaningful to you because you are a professional and not a dog owner, and so you will stay and hash it out. And I think that's great. I have a lot of respect for you, even though we have, now that I think of it... DISAGREED!!!!! On more than one occasion, even!

: )

Do me a favor, fisher.  Check in now and then.  Forums have a way of pendulum-swinging themselves into a different mode.  Maybe it will happen.  And, if it does, I would sure miss the likes of you if you weren't here. 
I didn't know Laika, except through your loving posts, even the ones clouded with pain.  But, she left a pawprint on my heart anyway...

Fisher and Anne,

You two are some of my favorite posters.  Even if we disagree, though we don't often, I know that it's about the dogs, it's not about ourselves.  I've been staying off the behavior and training forums alot because of the moderation there. 

I also took a break because of a particular thread that I got rather peeved at. 

I don't like how combative things have become, how it seems that alot of posters care only about the viewpoint and not the dogs that are caught in the crossfire.  It's sad really that some are forgetting the true reason for being here. 

Fisher, I have always enjoyed your posts.  You are knowledgeable and kind hearted.  You put your dogs above yourself, IMO, and that says alot about a person.  Please stay in touch with us, whether by PM or email.  I'm sorry to see you leave.

I will try to bring some sort of balance to the behavior section, though it's difficult with way that even simple solutions to simple problems are being politicized. 

Good luck and godspeed in your journey.

I will also miss you. It seems that this forum has become about "winning" at all costs. It also seems to have a problem with groups of people attacking individuals whenever they sense an opening. Many balanced, knowledgeable people such as yourself are leaving for reasons I can certainly understand. It seems that administration has made a choice of how they want the behavior section run and that they wish it separate from training. So it shall be.

I don't go to CM anymore.  Gave up shortly after it was started and only went back because I HAD to and in general, was made to feel about as welcome as ants at a picnic.  It was not a very nice place to visit....forget trying to mod.
 
So, I haven't seen what is actually happening there, but, might I say that being a new mod is not always easy, and especially in a section like that?  I would again remind that it's generally better to contact the "offender" via PM or file your complaints with the administration.  I promise you, it is NOT fun being the one being sliced, diced and stir fryed in public.

I don't go to CM anymore. Gave up shortly after it was started and only went back because I HAD to and in general, was made to feel about as welcome as ants at a picnic. It was not a very nice place to visit....forget trying to mod.

It's not just CM now though, it's the WHOLE behavior section.  Say anything that's constructive criticism or just a question about CM, and you get harassing e-mails and mods e-mailing you saying you're breaking Rule #3.  Nevermind all the positive things you've had to say about CM in numerous other posts.  If there's two things I don't appreciate, it's being treated like a 5 year old and someone else trying to tell me what I meant.  I don't need people PMing me creating conflict where there was none.  Keep your butts outa my business, or I'll just keep my butt outa that entire forum.

I believe Ixas's girl is trying to do a good job. I however, don't think that Admin should have created a moderator just because they are a CM supporter. Ixas girl is unquestionably devoted to her dog, but she's new to the dog world and a relatively new forum member. I'd prefer to see a lot more experience in both areas. Maybe I'm wrong and the admin couldn't find anyone else wanting the thankless task. Creating a forum where it's OK to say positive trainers kill dogs or are extremists pushing propaganda, but not OK to say that alpha rolling is bad news, isn't a balanced forum. CM himself is confident enough that I don't think he'd be grateful for a no dissention section just for him and no other trainer/behavioralist.
 
My biggest complaint is the purely venomous tone throughout the board these days. When a person is hurt or leaving, those that have generally caused the problem don't attempt to soothe ruffled feathers. They don't even have the good grace to be silent. No they circle in with sharp little teeth to finish off the kill and then the other hyenas grab a little fresh meat. Tasty.
 
I agree with Lesjie. I think there's far too much PM'ing going on. Instead of being used to ask a question that might cause the thread to go off topic, it is used to spew more venom and to back stab and gossip about other members. Not something I'm willing to do.

The creation of the CM forum was Jaime's idea. She felt it was necessary because of all the controversy. I kept it because I trust her judgement, and the Clicker Section was added by request. If members want this changed, express yourself - contact us. It doesn't have to be a big deal. I don't care if there's Clicker, CM, anything - it can be just Training and Behavior.
 
Regarding Ixas_girl. Yes, she's new. Yes, she likes CM. But she also likes aspects of clicker training, and is getting into herding. She is open to all viewpoints and aspects of training; ultimately respecting what is best for the particular dog. If a "clicker trainer" was a mod, others would have the same complaint. Give her a chance as a mod before throwing her into the fire.
 
Members are welcome to say whatever they want, so long as they say it respectfully. Period. Regardless of who the mod is.
 
And, as someone said, finding someone willing/stupid (sorry Ixas!) enough to mod training and behavior is hard, when the members keep proving their inability to self moderate when the kitchen gets too hot.
 
I don't know what has gotten into the forum water lately, but it has become an ugly place to be. And, sadly, it doesn't seem that there is much I/we can do to stop the downward spiral. If anyone has any ideas, or is seeing something I'm missing, feel free to contact me.

And, as someone said, finding someone willing/stupid (sorry Ixas!) enough to mod training and behavior is hard, when the members keep proving their inability to self moderate when the kitchen gets too hot.

My experience recently has been the contrary - receiving PMs from the mod about something that was assumed to be a conflict where no conflict existed.  If people, even mods, want clarification of my posts, I'd prefer they ask in public so that if I have misspoke and am being misunderstood, I can clarify to everyone.  If someone has a problem with me personally, by all means PM me or e-mail me, but don't use those to wriggle into a conversation you're not part of.

I don't know what has gotten into the forum water lately, but it has become an ugly place to be. And, sadly, it doesn't seem that there is much I/we can do to stop the downward spiral. If anyone has any ideas, or is seeing something I'm missing, feel free to contact me.

Personally, I've never understood why there is a seperate CM forum?  It confused me even as a newbie, with no knowlegde of the loadedness and baggage of that area of the forum.  If there is a CM forum, why is there not a Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson forum?  Or Victoria Stillwell?  She has her own dog training show too.  Maybe there should just be a "behavior and learning theory" forum.  The problem is that everyone knows you can't go into the CM forum and question his methods - fine - but all of the CM people are free to come into any other thread and bash other behaviorists based on a TV show.  IMO, that's quite strange, almost comical.

I don't know what has gotten into the forum water lately, but it has become an ugly place to be. And, sadly, it doesn't seem that there is much I/we can do to stop the downward spiral. If anyone has any ideas, or is seeing something I'm missing, feel free to contact me.

 

Personally I believe the forum has been too divided all over the place.  Probably to accommodate too many personalities and information,  causing too much conflict; us and them, you or me, this way or that way. 

Here is my suggestion for the two problem areas and to recreate "balance” an equal balance.  Shake it up, change it up,  drive the dynamic's and discussions by creating new ones!!  Here are some thoughts!


The dog behavior and psychology should be booted and renamed to

"Leaning Styles and techniques”

1.      Add; 
·         Positive Reinforcement Training;  This is where Clicker Trainers, Operant conditioning, etc.
·          Compulsion Training;  Leash corrections, etc
·         Classical Conditioning
·         Operant Conditioning
·         Dog communication and Body Language (much CM theriorie could be discussed in here)
2.       Remove
·         CM completely
·         Modification and Techniques
·         Remove behavior problems
·         And please..  remove Aggression (this is giving people the idea their dog is aggressive, by removing it will force people to find a new home for this question)


Training should be modified 

Add; Behavior concerns
Clicker Training could stay and be renamed to a "how to" clicker train or it could be removed.

Just my [sm=2cents.gif]

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

The dog behavior and psychology should be booted and renamed to

"Leaning Styles and techniques”

1. Add;
· Positive Reinforcement Training; This is where Clicker Trainers, Operant conditioning, etc.
· Compulsion Training; Leash corrections, etc
· Classical Conditioning
· Operant Conditioning
· Dog communication and Body Language (much CM theriorie could be discussed in here)
2. Remove
· CM completely
· Modification and Techniques
· Remove behavior problems
· And please.. remove Aggression

This is entirely too complicated for an uneducated dog owner with an issue. They're not going to have a clue where to post.

Edited: Modification techniques, behavior problems and aggression are some of the most clear-cut topics for people needing help NOW.

I don't really understand the separate behavior and training forums. Behavior needs training and training produces behavior.