Is Tail Docking Dog Torture?

janetmichel3009

miranda, just out of curiousity, what IS the non-cosmetic reason to crop ears?

Better air circulation to prevent chronic ear infections.

miranadobe

janetmichel3009

miranda, just out of curiousity, what IS the non-cosmetic reason to crop ears?

Better air circulation to prevent chronic ear infections.

 I have heard this used by many people as a non-cosmetic reason to crop but I really don't think there is much fact to it. I'm not against cropping and don't support banning it but dogs with upright ears also suffer ear infections. I have known more than a few GSDs with terrible, life long ear problems

AgileGSD

miranadobe

janetmichel3009

miranda, just out of curiousity, what IS the non-cosmetic reason to crop ears?

Better air circulation to prevent chronic ear infections.

 I have heard this used by many people as a non-cosmetic reason to crop but I really don't think there is much fact to it. I'm not against cropping and don't support banning it but dogs with upright ears also suffer ear infections. I have known more than a few GSDs with terrible, life long ear problems

Yep, Kenya has one about once a year, and anytime she's on an antibiotic.  She doesn't swim, rarely is wet/damp, and is on a limited ingredient diet (but does not have any allergies herself).

AgileGSD

miranadobe

janetmichel3009

miranda, just out of curiousity, what IS the non-cosmetic reason to crop ears?

Better air circulation to prevent chronic ear infections.

 I have heard this used by many people as a non-cosmetic reason to crop but I really don't think there is much fact to it. I'm not against cropping and don't support banning it but dogs with upright ears also suffer ear infections. I have known more than a few GSDs with terrible, life long ear problems

GSDs are not a cropped breed.  Comparing their incidents of ear infections to a cropped breed remaining uncropped isn't necessarily equivalent.  It's also not a fact that every natural-eared dog of an otherwise cropped breed will get chronic ear infections.  However, those who have experienced the ongoing pain of it can cite this as a reason why they would choose to crop in the future - just as Kim has reasons on the opposite spectrum of why she won't dock/crop in the future.  I give those with experience in the breeds credit for making informed decisions about their breed of choice.  Even though I have experience in more than one breed that is commonly docked, I would not make judgements about what an Aussie owner does with their dog's tail.

miranadobe

GSDs are not a cropped breed.  Comparing their incidents of ear infections to a cropped breed remaining uncropped isn't necessarily equivalent.  It's also not a fact that every natural-eared dog of an otherwise cropped breed will get chronic ear infections.  However, those who have experienced the ongoing pain of it can cite this as a reason why they would choose to crop in the future - just as Kim has reasons on the opposite spectrum of why she won't dock/crop in the future.  I give those with experience in the breeds credit for making informed decisions about their breed of choice.  Even though I have experience in more than one breed that is commonly docked, I would not make judgements about what an Aussie owner does with their dog's tail.

 Like I said, I'm not against cropping and am not telling anyone they shouldn't crop their dogs. I just question how accurate the statement that cropping makes dogs less prone to ear infections is. I work at a grooming shop and see a lot of mini schnauzers, both cropped and natural. Can't say I have noticed that one is more or less prone to ear infections. If the reasoning that they are less prone to ear infections due to air circulation, it would be comparable to dogs with natural upright ears since in theory they should also be less prone to infection due to better air circulation.

I will say that Wyatt has ears similar to natural dobie ears. He has lots of problems with his ears and has a few infections per year.

 Mingus has similar ears, but he doesn't get ear infections. He loves swimming too but it's not a problem for him.

I just have to say that my dog was docked before I got her and I'm happy that she was.  I do a lot of biking with her and it would have been dangerous to have her natural tail. The bike spokes would cut her tail in seconds if she started wagging during a run.   I can't imagine her having a long tail around the house either, the downstairs door would hit it at least once the way she follows people around.                                          I want to believe that if done correctly and early docking doesn't harm the dog because docked tails are very practical in my case.  But I'm not talking about rotties or aussies, those have nice tails and I don't see a reason to dock them.

AgileGSD

miranadobe

GSDs are not a cropped breed.  Comparing their incidents of ear infections to a cropped breed remaining uncropped isn't necessarily equivalent.  It's also not a fact that every natural-eared dog of an otherwise cropped breed will get chronic ear infections.  However, those who have experienced the ongoing pain of it can cite this as a reason why they would choose to crop in the future - just as Kim has reasons on the opposite spectrum of why she won't dock/crop in the future.  I give those with experience in the breeds credit for making informed decisions about their breed of choice.  Even though I have experience in more than one breed that is commonly docked, I would not make judgements about what an Aussie owner does with their dog's tail.

 

 Like I said, I'm not against cropping and am not telling anyone they shouldn't crop their dogs. I just question how accurate the statement that cropping makes dogs less prone to ear infections is. I work at a grooming shop and see a lot of mini schnauzers, both cropped and natural. Can't say I have noticed that one is more or less prone to ear infections. If the reasoning that they are less prone to ear infections due to air circulation, it would be comparable to dogs with natural upright ears since in theory they should also be less prone to infection due to better air circulation.

I must say I agree with everything 2bully said.

 And as far as the whole air circulation and ear infections go, I must say it makes a lot of sense to me.  Yes, sometimes dogs with cropped/erect ears do get ear infections.  But working as a technician I see SO many dogs with some kind of ear issues that have the big "floppy ears."  I'd say at least 90% of all Bassets that we see have some kind of ear problem.  One of the doctors even commented to me after seeing a Basset with major, chroinc ear issues, "now there's a breed that SHOULD have its ears cropped!"  And we don't even crop ears.  We do dock tails and take off dewclaws, and I can definitely tell you that it is not torture.  A little squeel and all is over and they don't care anymore.  OR maybe my definition of torture is different from everyone else's?   Anyway, back to the ear thing...  We don't see many Dobes so I can't really tell you much on them about ears, but the Dobe I had was cropped and he never had any ear issues in his entire life.  I think its a valid reason, although it doesn't absolutely guarantee you that you will not have problems.

Workingdoglover

 And as far as the whole air circulation and ear infections go, I must say it makes a lot of sense to me.  Yes, sometimes dogs with cropped/erect ears do get ear infections.  But working as a technician I see SO many dogs with some kind of ear issues that have the big "floppy ears."  I'd say at least 90% of all Bassets that we see have some kind of ear problem. 

  There is a huge difference between Basset ears (super long and super heavy) and natural eared Dobes. The absolute worst dog I had for ear infections was a GSD with big, upright ears. His half sister had ear problems until she was switched to raw, then they cleared up and never were an issue again. The boy though, had a chronic infection in one of his ears almost always no matter what he was eating (had it in both ears until switched to raw - kind weird). I could sometimes get it under control by swabbing it out twice a day with organic ACV but it was a constant struggle. I have known quite a lot of other GSDs who had similar or much worse problems and ear infections were a constant issue with many of that dog's relatives. My unrelated GSD has never had any ear problems. There are also dogs with upright ears that come into my work who have horrible ear problems - canals always swollen closed, lots of discharge and the such. I haven't had many floppy eared dogs myself - just two. My childhood setter had ear and skin problems on and off his whole life. My very Dobey Dobe mix never had ear issues.

 I just can't see where there is much fact to back the idea that cropping makes dogs less likely to get ear infections because upright ears allow better air flow. To be honest I would guess in many cases a better diet would clear up chronic ear infections in a lot of dogs.  The setter I mentioned above ate cheap food, was vaccinated every year and was on and off of steriods for much of his life. My two GSDs with the ear problems were fed cheap dog food, heavily vaccinated as puppies and given antibiotics and Rymadyl on and off in their first year. I also think that in some dogs there is an immune issue with a genetic predisposition which may make it harder to get under control.

AgileGSD

To be honest I would guess in many cases a better diet would clear up chronic ear infections in a lot of dogs.

I can vouch for that firsthand. When we rescued Sassy, she had an ear infection and continued to have them for over a year. The vet just said that it was a problem with labs and their long ears. Unfortunately, I believed him. It was because of other allergy problems that I switched her to NB Duck & Potato and it literally ended the ear infections forever. That was over 3 yrs ago and I've not had to treat her for any problems and I never clean them nor do I need to. The vet (new) always comments on how great her ears look when I take her in. If I hadn't experienced it myself, I wouldn't believe it but it makes me want to run around screaming about it. I could've spent years fighting those ear infections. She was miserable and so was I. I didn't have her on crappy food either but something in the ingredients was a trigger for her.

I'm not sure how you could crop a Basset's ears.  With Dobes, pits...it seems the base of their ears is stronger and more upright, their ears look folded over (or some do already stand like some pits';).  A Basset's ears seem completely weak and droopy.  I imagine the same ear folding over and down, just shorter.  I guess we'd need some examples of dogs who have had their ears cropped to help with infection to really know for sure.

AgileGSD

 I just can't see where there is much fact to back the idea that cropping makes dogs less likely to get ear infections because upright ears allow better air flow. To be honest I would guess in many cases a better diet would clear up chronic ear infections in a lot of dogs.  The setter I mentioned above ate cheap food, was vaccinated every year and was on and off of steriods for much of his life. My two GSDs with the ear problems were fed cheap dog food, heavily vaccinated as puppies and given antibiotics and Rymadyl on and off in their first year. I also think that in some dogs there is an immune issue with a genetic predisposition which may make it harder to get under control.

I wouldn't be able to word it that well, but I agree.

janetmichel3009

miranda, just out of curiousity, what IS the non-cosmetic reason to crop ears?

I think the answer to this question partially can rely on what on where one draws the line for comsetic and function.  Taking the doberman as an example, the cosmetic look of the dog does serve a function, at least in my opinion.  Dobes have long been breed to be successful guard/watch/protection dogs.  With that in mind, a docked and cropped doberman if nothing more looks more threatening and alert than a floppy eared, long tailed dobe.  This doesn't mean that a floppy eared dobe would be any less willing to protect its family, but I view part of a dogs success at being a guard dog as their ablity to turn away potential threats before they ever decide they want to do something.  Even without needing to raise a lip, or give a gruff of disproval at a would be attacker, a cropped/docked dobe already has a more intimidating build.  This is well recognized in how iconic the silhouette of a dobe has become (often used by security systems and such as an advertisement ploy).  So, if a altered dobe is better able to turn threats packing without needing to turn to physical force, than does that make their cropped ears purely cosmetic?

That being said, could they breed dobe's with erect ears to begin with?  I'm sure they could, though I often wonder if they would ever be able to achieve the full effects of a nicely cropped ear.  I always imagine if dobes had errect ears they would probably end up looking similar to a pharaoh hound's ears, and though I love pharaoh ears, its just not the same thing.

 Other potential non cosmetic reasons for cropping is a larger dangly ear is far more likely to get grabbed or injured in a fight whether it be with another dog or prey item.  As for infection rates, not sure if there is a non biased study that proves it, though it is interesting that wild canines seem to favor erect ears...

 Someone has created naturally bobtailed Boxers: http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm

  I suspect, like with the Boxers that mixing another breed in would be required to create a Dobe with natural *** ears. And they wouldn't look like cropped Dobe ears, as was mentioned. They woul probably look like the ears on some Min Pins or TMTs that are naturally pointy.

 http://minpintalk.tripod.com/care.htm

  http://www.ebetmanchesters.com/TMTVMinPin.htm