Is Tail Docking Dog Torture?

    • Gold Top Dog

    YellowOx

    We woudnt dream of amputating or performing surgery on human children for purely cosmetic reasons - so I dont see why it is accepted that we do it to animals.

     

    People do it every day - male circumcision.  Totally outdated and unnecessary.

    Again, I don't know how I feel about docks/crops either way so I'll stick to breeds where it's not even an option.  Though people constantly ask me when I had Nikon's ears docked  *der*

    • Gold Top Dog

    boredpuppy08

    Ah, I don't mean the initial screams when it was done - I mean they screamed and screetched for 3 straight days after, so much so that they lost weight and weren't nursing as well as they had previously. Finally the swelling subsided in the cut areas, in their case the dewclaws and tails, and they stopped screaming and went back to the business of eating and growing.

     Those puppies were docked too late, which accounts for the extra problems. I have never heard of puppies stopping nursing and crying for days due to a tail dock. I'd blame that on the owners and whoever did the docking.

      I had dewclaws on my first litters removed. Two at 1-2 days and one at 3+ days. I can tell you that the 3+ day old puppies seemed to be worse off than the puppies done at 1-2 days. The younger puppies screamed while it was being done, not unlike how puppies scream when anything is done to them, there was hardly any blood at all and they settled right done and started nursing when mom came back. The older puppies bled more and were uncomfortable longer, although nothing like what you are describing. With the dewclaws, by time a couple days passed they were pretty much healed over.

      I have since decided that it probably is best to leave front dewclaws on. My childhood dog repeatedly ripped his dewclaws out, so there is potential for injury. But keeping them trimmed short can help prevent that, as can wrapping the wrists with vet wrap in sitautions with potential for injury to occur. There seems to be evidence that dewclaws are actually important for dogs to have, to protect the wrist from impact. I would still remove rear dewclaws, which are much more likely to be a problem since they are usually not well connected in breeds which haven't been selected for them.

     This site shows tail damage in working dogs and presents an arguement that people should have the choice to dock tails. They have a video of puppies being docked but I couldn't play it right now.

     http://www.cdb.org/gsp.htm

      And I totally agree about spaying and neutering - both are far more invasive and both have long lasting effects on the dog's entire body.

    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

    boredpuppy08
    I have personally heard the cries of puppies who've had it done

    So have I, at a vet's office, for our litter of Cocker Spaniels.  They squealed for 2 seconds and then it was done.  It seems a competant, qualified vet would decline to do tail docking, sans anesthesia, on pups that are no longer neonates, (2-4 days old).  At the very least, he would explain the pain threshold and pain memory escalates after that age and would caution anyone who was thinking they might not want to pay for the anesthesia, or whatever reasons would prompt a person to have it done after 4 days old without even some numbing/anesthesia/pain meds.

    I don't understand the comments that claim "we wouldn't dream" of performing cosmetic surgery on human children, when circumcision has been a regular practice which is performed on roughly 60% of all boys born in the US every year. 

    Until you personally witness dogs with intact tails repeatedly breaking open their tails, blood splattering across the walls, put on multiple rounds of antibiotics for each time it breaks open... then you can't really appreciate why it is important to some owners to have the option to dock.  I'm not saying every dog within a particular breed needs it, nor is it right for every person.  But your desire to keep your dog's tail intact has no bearing on my right to have it docked to prevent future injuries.  Done as a 2 or 3 day pup by a licensed, qualified vet should be fine.

    Likewise, ear cropping done by a qualified vet, under anesthesia, at appropriate age, with consistent and careful upkeep after the procedure is not the horror some want to believe it is.  You may not choose to have it done, fine.  But to report it as torture, or to foolishly believe that the sutures along the edges of the ears would take weeks of painful healing, or to imply that there is no reason for it other than cosmetics is painfully uneducated about the procedure... and I don't think laws made under false impressions are particularly good for anymore.  I do NOT want to see ear crops done by non-vets, but I know that it happens and often with BETTER results than some vets - because it requires an artistry and specialized surgery that many vets aren't trained to do properly.  Many because they don't want to offer the surgery.  I DO want owners of adult dogs who cut off their dogs' ears with scissors with no anesthesia to be punished under the law.  But that's not the same as a medical procedure with anesthesia and proper medical care.

    I don't see the point in creating a law that keeps me from having medical procedures done under a qualified vet's precise hands that can enhance my dog's health.  People do this every day with spay/neuters which require a much more complicated, invasive surgery than dews, ears, or tails. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    miranda, just out of curiousity, what IS the non-cosmetic reason to crop ears?

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's pretty public knowledge that I do not personally support docking or cropping in dogs unless done for medicinal purposes. I have been there for countless procedures of docking, I have cared for the stressed mommas, I have witnessed the procedure, I have been there to pass the pups to the mama; I have seen every reason to support it, and every reason to prohibit it that exists, so I don't care to argue, I know how I feel.

    I have two Schnauzers with docked tails, one with a natural tail. None have cropped ears. Unless the dog came from a rescue or shelter, I could not see myself purposely buying a cropped or docked dog any more in my future.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I guess my parents are idiots. The pups had the misfortune to be born right before labor day weekend, so there was no choice but to wait until they were 5 days old - the vet doesn't even advocate giving pain medicine after a spay or neuter, we have had to have it out with him in the past, and he mentioned NOTHING about not having it done at their age. So, lack of information on our part, lack of honesty on the vet's, lack of forethought on our part, but I have the weight records from the pups and they had a lot of problems, the vet had to put in stitches on both tails and on the front dewclaws and one pup sucked the stitch out of one pup's tail... it was a bad deal.

    • Gold Top Dog

    "I am writing you for help in clarifying a long standing dispute among terrier fanciers involved in conformation dog shows. I am involved in several traditionally docked terrier breeds (Lakeland, Fox, Welsh etc.) and it is becoming increasingly common to see these breeds undocked. Is there a functional purpose for docking tails? Is it required to work terriers?


    Why I am supposed to be an expert on these things?

    I don't know, but I guess I'm as good as the next guy to ask for an opinion. So here goes.

    This is a European debate. You remember Europe. Europe is the place where the rivers are so polluted that the eels no longer run up the rivers to spawn, and where carp are considered a game fish. Europe is the place that has shot out almost all its wolves and bears. Europe is the place that colonized Africa and now lets Africans starve due to lack of aid or political intervention.

    Europe has ignored these things, and decided that the the real horror in the world is docking puppy dog tails!

    What morons.

    The Brits were fools to follow Europe in this. Now let's hope Canada does not go follow the Brits, or I may have to burn my Joni Mitchell and Neil Young CD's.

    Tail docking is a very minor procedure and does no harm to the dog. It is largely aesthetic and historical with certain breeds. That said, some terriers and other breeds have long thin tails that can be damaged when whipped in brush, worked in rock, etc. so they may benefit, medically, if they are docked. How often an over-thin and fragile tail is a real medical problem depends on the breed, the dog, how it works, where it works (and if it is worked at all).

    A terrier's tail, of course, is an essential part of the dog, and I consider it a very stupid thing to dock a terrier tail too short. I always advise people to err on the side of leaving the tail too long. You do not want to lose a good handle on the rear end of a working terrier by being too quick or aggressive with a pair of tail nippers.

    That said, a very long tail is of no use to a terrier, and could be a small health liability. A dog often has to exit a hole backwards and around curves. In that situation, a long thin tail could be a problem -- imagine exiting a tight and winding tunnel with a spring-pole stuck out behind you, and you get the idea. And then there are the thin tail tips that bleed when banged against rocks and brush.

    Some caveats. At least one breed of working terrier does not have a docked tail -- the border terrier -- and neither do working dachshunds. The tail on a border, however, is a very solid thing and is not easily damaged. If you cannot pick up a border terrier by its tail and throw it over a fence, it's not a true border terrier. A tail that is left intact on a working Jack Russell terrier, however, often ends up being very long and thin, and as a consequence it could be subject to real damage, and so it is generally docked.

    Another issue for working dogs is that digging on a dog is not an absolutely precise thing, and so the length, form and placement of the tail becomes an issue. To put it bluntly, a long thin whippy tail trailing behind an underground dog could be subject to being trimmed by a shovel.

    Has it ever happened to me or anyone I know? No. I am careful and my dogs rarely come in direct contact with a shovel. That said, it does not take too much imagination to think harm could result if a digger were very inattentive.

    All in all, however, and as I said before, tail docking is mostly done for cosmetic and historical reasons.

    But so what? We do a lot of things for cosmetic and historical reasons. Why can't tail tail docking be one of them? For God's sake, people, let's use a little common sense!

    People circumcise their children, women get themselves nipped for child birth (it's called an episiotomy), and every third teenager has a pierced tongue, nipple, eyebrow or navel.

    Whole TV shows are devoted to full-body tattoos.

    Women are getting breast implants or breast reductions, and men are getting hair transplants and scalp reductions.

    Noses are bobbed, fat is sucked out, teeth are capped, botox is injected, and ears are being pierced, ringed, barbelled, and pinned.

    Ever been to a PETA rally? If you look around, you will see a lot of metal hanging out of nostrils, off of eye brows, or rammed through tongues. Every other girl will be showing off her "tramp stamp" tattoo on the small of her back. God only knows what you might find ringed, belled and pierced if you were foolish enough to ever see one of these PETA lunatics standing before you naked. The mind shudders.

    Consider PETA spokes-idiot Pamela Anderson, who not only married the walking Erector Set known as Tommy Lee, but who also got her own body repeatedly tucked, sucked, injected, lifted, dyed, bobbed, and implanted. And these people are worried about a ten-second tail nip? What on earth for?

    There are real problems in the world, and this is NOT one of them.

    The anti-tail docking people have no sensible rationale to oppose tail docking -- it is a ten-second thing done when the dog is one or two days old, and it is over with very little fuss or pain. People who love dogs more than their own lives have been doing it for generations -- proof alone that it is a small thing and does no damage to the dog while sometimes serving a health function in the field.

    Here are some real things to worry about with dogs:



    Closed genetic registries which mean that the genetic diversity of dogs is dramatically reduced in time, and with it the health of every breed with a closed registry (i.e. all Kennel Club breeds);

    Fat dogs which do not see exercise and which have sad and shortened lives (about 1/3 of all dogs);

    Slick floors in kitchens which increases the chance of hip dysplasia for all large canines (a serious and sad thing);

    Poor fencing, poor obedience training, and the complete absence of tags and microchipping which means dogs are easily lost and frequently struck by cars.


    These are REAL dog problems. Tail docking does not even come close to making the list of things to be concerned about -- in the world of working dogs or otherwise.

    Not everything in the world needs to be legislated, and this is something that fits under the umbrella of "leave it alone and let freedom ring."

    If a breeder of nonworking dogs wants to leave the tails on their dog long, so what? If a breeder wants a sensible working dog with a properly docked tail, so what?

    What interest, business or concern is it of society?

    None.

    The tail docking debate is really about a very small but vocal sector of society wanting to be nannies to the rest of us.

    As a general rule these people know very little about dogs, know nothing about working dogs, and do not give a rat's behind about honest animal welfare -- if they did, they would pick a real issue to take action on.

    And there are a LOT of real animal welfare issues. How about habitat protection? How about disease control in wild animal populations (rabies, distemper, mange, tuberculosis, chronic wasting disease, West Nile)? How about pushing to lower the price of veterinary care and improving access to it as well? These are real issues.

    Fair warning, however -- making a change in these arenas might involve actually going out into the environment with mud, bugs, rain and cold (Ugh!).

    In addition, a real problem might be inconveniently complex and serious (God forbid!), and actually involve something more involved than self-righteous bullying of ignorant legislators and dog owners.

    But of course, the tail-docking debate is not really about dogs, is it? It's about people who want to feel smarter and superior to others. These people will always be with us and I suggest they simply find something new to feel smarter and superior about.

    If, faced with all the issues and problems in the world (hunger, violence, hurricanes, disease, lack of health insurance, war, poverty, illiteracy, racism, deforestation, violence against women, animal extinctions, loss of global fisheries, pollution, child abuse, etc.), someone thinks tail docking of well-loved pets and working dogs is a major concern worthy of time and energy, they are idiots.

    Nannying idiots.


    • Gold Top Dog

    I've heard those arguements before, they do not sway me. Saying 'oh, but look at this, this is so much worse so you better not care about *that* or you're a heartless idiot' is baloney - great evil or small, doesn't really make a difference. And I'm seriously offended by the comment that tail docking could in any way be similar to piercing - A VOLUNTARY INFORMED PROCEDURE - a dog can never give it's consent, so it is not the same, and piercings are not done for purely cosmetic reasons, at least not by everyone.

    Did anyone else read the article about spinal problems and fantom limb pains dogs who have docked tails can suffer from?

    Edit here it is: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:tBiiJGhqE5AJ:www.dogtrainingireland.ie/documents/why_taildocking_should_be_prohibited.pdf+neuroma+tail+dock&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

    • Gold Top Dog

    See folks that's the thing about the AR movement they've got dog people being their mouth pieces for them. Is it any wonder that we are marching right towards total pet elimination? I say if you don't want to dock or crop then by all means don't, but just because you disagree with it I should adhere to your beliefs? You do as you see fit should I not be allowed  the same? The more we give the more they will take.

    • Gold Top Dog

    2bully
    Is it any wonder that we are marching right towards total pet elimination? I say if you don't want to dock or crop then by all means don't, but just because you disagree with it I should adhere to your beliefs? You do as you see fit should I not be allowed  the same?

    I don't see the question of tail docking as torture as leading to pet elimination. I also don't think that any true dog lover only cares about the dogs under their roof. I don't know enough about the procedures discussed to weigh in on them but if given the option for a dog of mine, I'd pass it up. I think that dogs and dog lovers benefit greatly from discussions like this. If you truly believe there's nothing inhumane about these procedures, then go ahead. If you have questions or concerns though, you deserve to hear any and all thoughts and theories.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I dont agree with circumcision before the child has the ability to make the decisions for themselves either.

    • Gold Top Dog

    2bully, I couldn't agree more with you!! Since 1969 I've been involved with breeds that are docked and cropped, and I've worked as a vet tech. I've never seen any long lasting bad effects from any properly done cropping, docking, or dewclaw removal. IT'S NOT TORTURE!!!

    If a veterinarian chooses not to do these procedures, fine! If an individual chooses not to have these procedures done on their own dogs, fine! Why do some people think that they need to impose their personal feelings and beliefs on others? MOST ethical breeders make educated, informed decisions regarding their breed, and the various medical procedures inherent to that breed. They were often attracted to their breed because of their appearence, and wish to keep that appearence for future generations. How dare someone who knows little, or nothing about certain breeds, or dogs in general, dictate what is allowed!!

    • Gold Top Dog

    YellowOx
    We woudnt dream of amputating or performing surgery on human children for purely cosmetic reasons - so I dont see why it is accepted that we do it to animals.

     

    Ear tucking, ear piercing and even braces are often done on children for cosmetic or cultural reasons.  

    • Gold Top Dog
    I used to work at a vet clinic and we docked tails all the time-i highly disagree that it was torture.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I question the necessity of most cropping and docking but agree with 2bully that there are more pertinent issues to animal welfare. People who do it incorrectly are idiots but I think we have enough enforceable laws already.

    2bully
    The tail docking debate is really about a very small but vocal sector of society wanting to be nannies to the rest of us.

    I worry about the "nannies" too because their intentions may be good hearted but people need to realize that just because something tugs at your heart strings doesn't mean a new law needs to be made.

    As Ernie's Mom said, "every time we allow the govt. to say "You can't do this"  you're giving them permission to stick a gun in your face to enforce it."

    I'm sure we all want to live in a society where individuals live by the laws compassion and common sense. You can try to legislate those principles but most likely you will just end up stepping on the rights of responsible law abiding citizens more than you will correct or enlighten those who just don't get it.