This shelter enables puppymills!

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    The ONLY way that we will ever stop puppy mills is to stop supporting the pet store industry. 

     

    Actually, it is just ONE way. Internet, classifieds and parking lots puppy purchases can also perpetuate the continued breeding of dogs for no other purpose than to make a buck. Sadly I fear the efforts to eliminate pet store purchases only increases the likelihood that the internet (in particular) will be the next marketplace for puppymill pups. As individuals we can and should do our part but I think the problem is beyond the general public's control and we really need to work and encourage our officials to stop this at the source by going after the disreputable breeders. Wouldn't it be nice to walk into a pet store with faith that regulations are in place to insure that the puppy for sale has come from a reputable source?

    • Gold Top Dog

    2bully

    spiritdogs

    have purchased pet store dogs in the past and I will again in the future.

    I'm simply appalled that a so-called rescuer would not see that this just perpetuates a system that perpetrates misery on dogs.  The ONLY way that we will ever stop puppy mills is to stop supporting the pet store industry.  You are not "rescuing" a dog when you buy from a pet store, you are simply insuring that greedy *&%($#^'s somewhere in the midwest will be able to keep row upon row of breeding bitches in filthy cages thanks to the profit you just provided them with.  Disgusting.

     Why would you reply to me and quote a different member? For the record I didn't make that statement DPU made that statement.

     

    What Chuffy said.  I was not responding to you.  Sorry for the confusion.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    The pet store and puppymiller are part of the dog profession

     

    I'm not sure I agree with you here.

    DPU
    and if dog professionals united can not reign in these renegrades

     

    How are they supposed to do that?  DO you know how hard it is for courts and police to even bring these people to what we would deem justice?

     

    DPU
    why pawn off the effort onto the public.

    Because that is what will WORK.  DPU, I am in the UK and as far as I am aware most, if not all, pet shops don't sell puppies here anymore.  Why do you think that is?

    DPU
    Rescue means helping a dog in distress. 

     

    There are many ways of helping the plight of a) a puppy you see in a pet shop and b) helping the plight of ALL pet shop puppies.  "Rescuing" the puppy enables the people behind the operation to continue perpetrating misery on dogs.  And how many can you "rescue"?  Do you go and buy every single pet shop puppy you see?  Because if you want to help pet shop puppies by buying them, then in order to make a difference on a larger scale, that is what you have to do. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    sooner
    DPU

    I don't advocate that just I don't advocate boycotting the adoption of pet stores puppies.  Just need to point the phoniness of the dog professional advocacy once money is involved.  I am sure there are things that can be done before the puppy is born. 

     

    As has been pointed out numerous times, exchanging money for a living thing at a pet store perpetuates the suffering of all the animals behind the scenes. It's moral D-Day for us as animal lovers. On one hand that singular puppy faces an uncertain future, and on the other hand are the thousands of dogs who are exploited in appalling conditions until they are completely and totally used up physically and disposed of. By providing the store, and the facility providing the animal to the store, with a source of income you are endorsing their practices and allowing them to continue abusing animals.

    Comparing that to a trainer accepting money from the owner of a pet store puppy is apples to oranges. If the puppy is left in the store, unable to be sold, the pup will either be returned to the breeder, who with enough returns will eventually be run out of business, or the pup will be surrendered or given away and the pet store will think twice before buying another animal that they cannot sell. With an organized effort eventually pet stores and by association, puppy mills, could be bankrupted.

    By comparison, if someone buys a puppy mill dog from a pet store chances are very good that it is going to have health or behavior problems and without trainers and others in the pet professions, that dog will likely end up sick, dead or abandoned. After the pup is sold there is no consequence for the store or the breeder, and chances are the owner would never know who the breeder is anyway.  Refusing service to those dogs serves no greater good at that point. The mission becomes keeping the dog happy and healthy and in the owner's home forever.

     

    Can I just say, excellent post sooner Big Smile That's what I was trying to say.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    Once again, people on the sidelines trying to call the shots for others to act.  Having others do your dirty work while you just sit back and watch and then profit by these dogs by taking in dog related fees.  I am appalled that so called dog professionals would advocate and allow the extended miserable existence and would be ok to sacrifice their lives.  Dog professional who advocate the killing of puppies are so pathetic because they greedily accept the fees from these "rescued" pet shop dogs by allowing the pups in their training class, in their clinics, in their grooming facilities, in breed clubs, in their conformation showings, in their boarding facilities.  Every pet shop that I know always has first free vet visit. If the dog professional were united, they would be able to police and change the practices of one of their own, the puppymiller.  Leave the public out of your internal squabbles.  Relying on the public to stop the practices of puppymillers and to close down pet shops while the dog professional continues supporting the pet store industry by accepting fees associated with these dogs is so two faced.  The dog professional is in a position to create consequences for purchasing pet shop dogs but we all know greed override this.  You can't have it both ways when there are so many other ways to accomplish what is needed without picking on the poor defenseless puppy.

     

    The reason dog professionals take "these dogs" into class is that, once the dog is owned by an individual it is a loved dog, just like yours.  We have an opportunity to educate people not to get their dogs from similar sources in the future, but not if we simply tell them to buzz off.  If we did that, they would just end up repeating their mistake, time after time.  The public are the ones who need the education, because the rest of us already know enough (at least some of us do) not to buy from pet stores, Internet puppy mills, or disreputable breeders.  You, on the other hand, point fingers at people who do educate others, yet you remain uneducated  yourself and claim you are rescuing dogs by buying at pet shops, which is absurd.  You are putting cash into the pet store owner's pocket and into the pockets of the likes of Hunte Corp.  No one is picking on "poor defenseless puppies".  In fact, the pet stores want you to "rescue" them, since they know that just ups their bottom line.  They don't care how they suck people like you in - they just do it, because it's all about the almighty buck.  Instead of buying from them, sic the state vet on them any time you notice so much as a drippy nose, or a dirty crate.  YOU can't have it both ways either.  Why don't you go out and get another credit card to max out - I'm sure that there are hundreds of Internet "buypuppiesnow" sites that you could spend your life savings on to rescue the remaining thousands of puppies, but in the end, you would just be putting money in their pockets to help them continue, and you cannot shovel that much *^(% against the tide without the public getting behind it.  That's why, even if some pups don't get homes, and pay with their lives, you must still never buy pet store dogs.  NO ONE should support this heartless industry, and EVERYONE who knows about it should be educating as many people as they can.  So, if that means that I let people in to my training classes even though they made that mistake, then that's what it means, because I DO talk about mills and the Internet, etc. to each and every class.  I have a nopuppymills poster in my facility, and I support legitimate rescues.  No one is doing my dirty work - I own three rescued dogs, and have rescued dogs all my life.  Sequoyah was purchased from a reputable source.  No pet store dogs here at my house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    For your information, I do not advocate the killing of dogs or puppies, nor do any responsible trainers - YOU do that with your actions, if you continue to support a system that places countless ill-bred, sick, and parasite-infested puppies on the market each year.

    • Gold Top Dog
    ...
    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

    Once again, people on the sidelines trying to call the shots for others to act.  Having others do your dirty work while you just sit back and watch and then profit by these dogs by taking in dog related fees.  I am appalled that so called dog professionals would advocate and allow the extended miserable existence and would be ok to sacrifice their lives.  Dog professional who advocate the killing of puppies are so pathetic because they greedily accept the fees from these "rescued" pet shop dogs by allowing the pups in their training class, in their clinics, in their grooming facilities, in breed clubs, in their conformation showings, in their boarding facilities.  Every pet shop that I know always has first free vet visit. If the dog professional were united, they would be able to police and change the practices of one of their own, the puppymiller.  Leave the public out of your internal squabbles.  Relying on the public to stop the practices of puppymillers and to close down pet shops while the dog professional continues supporting the pet store industry by accepting fees associated with these dogs is so two faced.  The dog professional is in a position to create consequences for purchasing pet shop dogs but we all know greed override this.  You can't have it both ways when there are so many other ways to accomplish what is needed without picking on the poor defenseless puppy.

    DPU  Any dog trainer who would refuse a client because the dog was purchased at a pet store or on the internet would be a bad trainer in my opinion.  Please read spiritdogs response and read it agan and again until you understand what she is trying to explain.  You do a great thing by fostering and no one takes that from you.  Why don't you see that there are other ways to help dogs and one of them is to try and shut down puppy mills and educate the general public.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I was looking for details on changes in the law and I found this and thought it was a good point:

    One week older in a puppies life is a lot in terms of the market place!  This trade is all about the 'cute' factor.  Unsold puppies clutter up the shop/premises.  This all costs the Pet Shop License Holder - they rely on a quick turnover which keeps the profits high.

     Source

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

    The reason dog professionals take "these dogs" into class is that, once the dog is owned by an individual it is a loved dog, just like yours.  We have an opportunity to educate people not to get their dogs from similar sources in the future, but not if we simply tell them to buzz off.  If we did that, they would just end up repeating their mistake, time after time.

    You do this as the individual dog owner hands over money.  Can't you take a stand and be true to your advocacy and advertise that if one buys a pet shop dog then you will not allow these dogs into your class?  You could do that but you won't because that would require getting involved and coming off the sidelines.  Now, I am not advocating that you do this but it would bring some integrity into advocacy.

    The public are the ones who need the education, because the rest of us already know enough (at least some of us do) not to buy from pet stores, Internet puppy mills, or disreputable breeders.

    Why are you trying to involve the public?  The puppymiller and the pet shop owner is one of your kind, part of the group of dog professionals.  The pet shop puppy is a legal outlet to purchase a family dog.  If its not, make it illegal.  Doesn't the dog professional world have any power or authority?  What a sad state and to top it off, no leadership whats so ever. 

    NO ONE should support this heartless industry

    And yet you do!

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG
    DPU  Any dog trainer who would refuse a client because the dog was purchased at a pet store or on the internet would be a bad trainer in my opinion.  Please read spiritdogs response and read it agan and again until you understand what she is trying to explain.  You do a great thing by fostering and no one takes that from you.  Why don't you see that there are other ways to help dogs and one of them is to try and shut down puppy mills and educate the general public.

    Sorry JackieG, I can't see past the money changes hands.  I can't see how one would advocate a strategy extending miserable conditions and possibly the death of the puppy and then because the puppy was rescued by a family, turn around and take the fee associated  with that same dog that were willing to sacrafice. 

    I agree that any trainer who refused to help train a pet store dog is a bad trainer, just as it is a bad trainer who advocates extending miserable conditions and possibly death to puppies.  They are not true dog lovers.

    And in reference to your last sentence, that is my whole point...that there are other ways  to upgrade the practice of selling puppies to the public.  The boycott advocacy only hurts the puppy.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    Can't you take a stand and be true to your advocacy and advertise that if one buys a pet shop dog then you will not allow these dogs into your class?

     

    No she can't because she can't KNOW where each individual got their dog, and because such an owner is MORE in need of her assistance and guidance than one who went to a reputable breeder.  The dog would suffer if she stayed her hand.  Once the pup has been bought, the damage is done.  Refusing to help the owner achieves nothing.

    DPU
    Now, I am not advocating that you do this but it would bring some integrity into advocacy.

     

    No, it would just mean she is less able to help people.  And even LESS able to if she goes out of business and no longer has a class to run, I imagine.

    What you are advocating says 2 things to me: 1. Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted and 2. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    DPU
    The puppymiller and the pet shop owner is one of your kind, part of the group of dog professionals.

     

    There's an insult if ever I saw one.

    DPU
    The pet shop puppy is a legal outlet to purchase a family dog.  If its not, make it illegal. 

     

    Here at least we agree.... but this is a long steep hill and a lot of dogs are suffering on it.

    DPU
    Doesn't the dog professional world have any power or authority?

     

    No I don't think they do - not to implement and enforce laws.  What planet are you living on?

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    I can't see how one would advocate a strategy extending miserable conditions and possibly the death of the puppy

     

    No one is saying IGNORE the plight of the puppy.  His conditions can be improved without enabling the perpetrators of his misery.  I am sure I have made this point before and you persist in ignoring it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I stand by what I said and I know you feel strongly about your position and I respect you for that and will give up trying to change your mind.

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    I stand by what I said and I know you feel strongly about your position and I respect you for that and will give up trying to change your mind.

    You are absolutely right, I see it as a human problem and you see it as a puppy problem.  I see the parties involved are the puppymiller, petshop owner, and the dog professional.  You see it as the puppymiller, petshop owner, and the public. 

    Chuffy, I live on the planet earth where professions like accountants, lawyers, merchants, unions, etc. are all well organized and police and control their own.  I am now starting to wonder if trainers, behaviorist, groomers, vets, are truly a profession.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    Chuffy, I live on the planet earth where professions like accountants, lawyers, merchants, unions, etc. are all well organized and police and control their own.

     

    Do you mean like, for example, the registry of chartered accountants?  What happens if someone is an accountant and not on that registry?  What are the punitive measures and who takes them?  Similarly, what happens if a someone administers, say, morphine, to a patient but they are not a registered nurse?  I'm honestly not sure, so I can't say what SHOULD happen to a dog professional who acts without being on an approved registry... Are there laws about this, or is it buyer beware?