This shelter enables puppymills!

Chuffy

I'm honestly not sure, so I can't say what SHOULD happen to a dog professional who acts without being on an approved registry... Are there laws about this, or is it buyer beware? 

Well, veterinarians have to have a license to practice, but no, there is no professional organization that governs dog groomers, or behaviorists, or trainers. There are some organizations that many dog trainers belong to, but there is no requirement, and really, pretty much anyone can call themselves a trainer or a behaviorist or a groomer.

DPU

Sorry JackieG, I can't see past the money changes hands. 

Well, that inability to make distinctions is your problem. If, as you yourself say, you can't see past money changing hands, without looking at what the end result of that exchange of money is, that's a pretty limited and distorted world view. If, in your world, giving money to puppy factories is morally equivalent to giving money to dog trainers, poor decisions are going to be made about where to spend money.

DPU

I can't see how one would advocate a strategy extending miserable conditions and possibly the death of the puppy and then because the puppy was rescued by a family, turn around and take the fee associated  with that same dog that were willing to sacrafice. 

You keep claiming that those who refuse to financially support puppy factories are "advocating" a strategy of extending miserable conditions. When someone contributes hundreds of dollars to a puppy factory, do you consider that to be advocating for extending the continued existence of those puppy factories? If one has the time and resources to rescue a dog or puppy why should they financially contribute to the continuation of puppy factories? Why let the puppy or dog in the shelter die by spending one's resources on supporting puppy factories instead?

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buster the show dog

Chuffy

I'm honestly not sure, so I can't say what SHOULD happen to a dog professional who acts without being on an approved registry... Are there laws about this, or is it buyer beware? 

Well, veterinarians have to have a license to practice, but no, there is no professional organization that governs dog groomers, or behaviorists, or trainers. There are some organizations that many dog trainers belong to, but there is no requirement, and really, pretty much anyone can call themselves a trainer or a behaviorist or a groomer.

You misunderstand me I think.  I am aware that AT THE MOMENT there is no such registry for the world of dog professionals and it is buyer beware - ie, the onus is on the public.  I am examining DPUs suggestion that somehow that industry can be policed from within, WITHOUT placing the onus on the public.  I am aware I didn't phrase it clearly!

If an accountant practises after being struck off the registry of chartered accountants, what happens to the accountant?  

buster the show dog

Well, that inability to make distinctions is your problem.

What problem, what happens here is a lost of respect for the advocate.  Look, pretend I drive into the parking lot of pet store and I am met by a dog professional adovcating against the purchase pet shop puppies.  And if this is first time I am hearing the spiel, I give respect to the person and listen.  I go into the petshop and listen to them and again lets pretend I make a personal decision to buy a puppy.  Me and the puppy are on our way to the car when we are met once again by the same dog professional.  This time she gives me her business card and price list for training the dog I had just brought.  My expectation would be to be shunned or yelled at, some ramification, some consequence for not listening to the advocate and respecting her beliefs.  Believe me, instant loss of respect of the advocate and their cause.  When ever you rely on the public doing your job, it is just not going to happen.  Once again, look what WiHS did and accomplished...shutting down a puppymill and saving all the dogs.  Can't you come up with a different strategy other than one that picks on the poor helpless puppies.?

 

I think the WI HS did something which will improve the lives of the dogs at the mill and prevent future suffering, so that is a good thing.

OTOH I think buying a puppy mill puppy at a pet store is FINANCING the continued production of puppies. The money is not only used as a financing source for the mills, from a business perspective it financially justifies the continuation of their business.

A dog trainer's fee is not used to make more puppies.The vet who treats sick puppies is not using the money to make more puppies.The town that licenses your dog is not using the money to make more puppies.

ONLY the pet store, broker and the puppy mill directly use the money to continue producing puppies.

Do I feel terrible for the puppies in the pet stores? Absolutely. Do I think those puppies should have homes? Absolutely. I have a heart. But I also feel terrible for their mothers and fathers and I believe in my heart that buying a puppy mill puppy guarantees the continued mistreatment of their parents.

Doesn't the puppy's mother deserve mercy too? Is she suffering less or more than the puppy in the window? I would bet she is suffering more and she will continue to suffer as long as her puppies make money for someone.

I see buying that puppy as taking an active role in continuing the abuse of the puppy's mother. Just because you can't see her or the father doesn't make her suffering less real.

So I say don't buy the puppy in the window---make it an economic hardship for a store to sell puppies, and the market for the mills will dry up.

And when you meet someone with a puppy mill dog, don't bash them. Educate them and help them give that puppy the best possible life---because the puppy deserves a good home no matter where it came from.

'nuff said?

polarexpress

'nuff said?

well said. =]

polarexpress

I see buying that puppy as taking an active role in continuing the abuse of the puppy's mother. Just because you can't see her or the father doesn't make her suffering less real.

Still stuck in the same old rut advocating a strategy that does not work but only makes the puppies worse off.  Can you be a little, just a little more creative to come up with a strategy that works, just like WiHS.

DPU

buster the show dog

Well, that inability to make distinctions is your problem.

What problem, what happens here is a lost of respect for the advocate.  Look, pretend I drive into the parking lot of pet store and I am met by a dog professional adovcating against the purchase pet shop puppies.  And if this is first time I am hearing the spiel, I give respect to the person and listen.  I go into the petshop and listen to them and again lets pretend I make a personal decision to buy a puppy.  Me and the puppy are on our way to the car when we are met once again by the same dog professional.  This time she gives me her business card and price list for training the dog I had just brought.  My expectation would be to be shunned or yelled at, some ramification, some consequence for not listening to the advocate and respecting her beliefs.  Believe me, instant loss of respect of the advocate and their cause.  When ever you rely on the public doing your job, it is just not going to happen.

 

So, two wrongs make a right?

Liesje

So, two wrongs make a right?

A personal choice and someone's opinions on that choice does not make a wrong.  The dog professional doing a complete sommersault, a 180 degree turn is wrong. 

DPU

Liesje

So, two wrongs make a right?

A personal choice and someone's opinions on that choice does not make a wrong.  The dog professional doing a complete sommersault, a 180 degree turn is wrong. 

 

Would you feel the same if they were helping people but not accepting money for it?

 

DPU

My expectation would be to be shunned or yelled at, some ramification, some consequence for not listening to the advocate and respecting her beliefs. 

In that case I understand your position a little better, though I still disagree, and I pity you for your experiences and consequently your expectations of fellow dog members.  I assure you that what most dog owners want is what is best for dogs.  Once you have bought the puppy, the damage is done, and yelling at people for not respecting our beliefs is not going to get us anywhere.  If we pity you, wish to help you and educate you and you have a lack of respect for us on that account.... well, as I say, I can only pity you.

 I think solutions are only as effective as they are practical, in that all the pipe dreams of "ideals" in the world won't get anyone (or any puppy) anywhere if it's not possible to implement them.  Does that mean that ideals shouldn't be striven for?  No, of course not, but progress is actually held back by people who refuse, for whatever reason, to acknowledge that an awful lot of middle ground has to be covered first, and compromises have to be made for the greater good. 

In the example of a trainer accepting a pet store puppy buyer as a client, sure she might be sacrificing some principles to do so - but that is far better than sacrificing nothing and allowing the puppy to suffer twice: once as a result of birth circumstances, and once as a result of not being allowed to live the best life possible.  That is even assuming that the trainer IS sacrificing their principles, because every trainer I know wants the opportunity to open a dialogue with people about pet care.  Spending several hours of training classes with that person who walked out of the pet store holding a puppy means several hours MORE than they would have had otherwise to discuss, in tactful ways, the best way of going about getting a puppy.  Maybe next time that client will ask the trainer for help sourcing a good breeder.  Of course, maybe they won't, but in that case the current puppy still got the benefit of training. 

Benedict

In the example of a trainer accepting a pet store puppy buyer as a client, sure she might be sacrificing some principles to do so - but that is far better than sacrificing nothing and allowing the puppy to suffer twice: once as a result of birth circumstances, and once as a result of not being allowed to live the best life possible.  That is even assuming that the trainer IS sacrificing their principles, because every trainer I know wants the opportunity to open a dialogue with people about pet care.  Spending several hours of training classes with that person who walked out of the pet store holding a puppy means several hours MORE than they would have had otherwise to discuss, in tactful ways, the best way of going about getting a puppy.  Maybe next time that client will ask the trainer for help sourcing a good breeder.  Of course, maybe they won't, but in that case the current puppy still got the benefit of training. 

Where is the sacrifice, I only see gains.  The strategy that is advocated requires nothing of the proponent except maybe shaking a finger at someone from time to time.  It relies on someone else, the public to do the job.  It relies on fellow advocates to stand outside the store and make contact with potential buys.  Maybe there should be a show of hands and a speak up of what one actually has done in the way of physical effort to support this boycott strategy.  If these advocates were true to their cause then I should see them outside of the store during the store's business hours.  I always visit 2 petshops after the foster dog showings at Petsmart.  Never have I seen any advocate there. 

Where the sacrifice for the trainer, principles?  We see money easily trumps that.  And, lecturing a dog owner that purchased petshop after the fact should be re-examined as to its effectiveness and practicality.  It is most likely that the owner will not be getting a new dog for a long long time, may be as much as 15 years.  After 15 years, there is a good possibility that the training course itself will be a vague memory so what does that say about the lectures.  Look at the immediate benefits of this strategy.  The advocates doesn't have to do anything, put in no effort, and the trainer gets money.  Surely, at least one person here can come up with a better strategy like WiHS, the puppies are depending on it.

 Okay, DPU.  You misunderstood much of what I posted, but that's fine.  I do have a question for you, though.

Since you have said that you have purchased dogs from pet stores in the past, and will do so again in the future, it seems to me that you are the best person to come up with a solution.  What would it take someone doing, or saying, to you that would convince you not to ever buy a pet store puppy again?  Whatever the answer is to that question is the strategy, implemented on a grand scale, for solving the plight of puppy mill dogs.