AKC - Self Preservation At All Costs

This is one of the reasons that I don't encourage people to put too much value on conformation as an evalution for breeding. It's just a game and people who learn to manipulate their odds win a lot more than people who don't.

Again, the problem with Kennel Clubs is that they don't agree with this.  Conformation is as serious as the working trials are to us.  They DO represent a selection process for the best breeding specimens - and it's the only only selection process that the kennel clubs put stock in.  It's not "a" standard, the conformation standard is "THE" standard.

This person, for instance, would disagree that it's just a game:  http://www.silverton.net/  Her web site boasts that she's "had the Number 1 Border Collie in Breed or All-Breed, or both systems since they were recognized."  She doesn't mean agility or obedience, though her dogs do both.

The AKC breed club used to have a large emphasis on the BC as a herding dog, on their web site.  Now it's really hard to find herding information - there's only a direct link when there's "news" and the page is a collection of very old articles.  By contrast there's several seperate pages for conformation - juniors, Westminster, judges ed, several pages of discussion on the standard (THE standard), specialty, etc, etc. 

The "historical photos" are all unpedigreed farm dogs which happen to look like the australian dogs (because they are old fashioned collies and Aussies, not BCs).  Please note that there are many photos of known pedigreed working BCs from the time of the photos they choose to display.

This is a collie, obviously a family pet:

This is a famous founder dog of the modern Border Collie, working and show dog alike, named Herdman's Tommy.

Why would they put the first dog and not the second on the judges' education page?  I believe there is a definite agenda on the part of those who hold conformation as the ultimate standard, to undermine the working dog. 

AgileGSD

Many breeders ARE leaving AKC which is largely what is causing the problems to begin with. Commercial breeders are now going with APRI, CKC, WWKC and other alternative registeries and because of that AKC is losing a lot of money. To continue to thrive, AKC can not continue to lose money. I fail to see what the problem is with them registering commercailly bred dogs is and always have.

     The original problem was that the show breeders didn't like commercial breeders breeding "their" breeds. AKC wanted to be an exclusive show breeder registry, tried to play on both sides of the fence & appease their revenue makers (commercial breeders) and not step on the toes of the show breeders. The commercial breeders locked them out, now they are sorry, becuase they don't have the funds to generate shows, or even sustain themselves as a registry without the commercial breeders! Ironic, that in order to keep up their exclusive show breeders they needed the other breeders, as well, lol. The cruz of their dilemma is that they STILL want to appease their show breeders who help promote them as an exclusive registry while wooing the commercial breeders back! They need to pick a side, and tell the other side to SHOVE OFF, we don't care what you think. Whichever side they tell this to, they've got a problem. The commercial breeders don't want to do the DNA testing and pay the registration fees, and be involved with a registry that labels all of them puppy mills. And the show breeders want every AKC registered dog to be show bred. :::sigh:::

    I also fail to see the problem with raising dogs commercially, because this is not the puppy mill image that the ARs have ingrained in our psyches. Breeding dogs is a business whether you have a show champion raised in the home bitch or 20 dogs ...

brookcove

This person, for instance, would disagree that it's just a game:  http://www.silverton.net/  Her web site boasts that she's "had the Number 1 Border Collie in Breed or All-Breed, or both systems since they were recognized."  She doesn't mean agility or obedience, though her dogs do both.

 There are plenty of people breeding soley for AKC obedience as well.

  Just because people take it seriously doesn't mean that it isn't just a game. People can become quite serious about games, especially when a lot of money is involved. And some people do still try to keep up the illusion that it is something more meaningful, saying it is the best way to evaluate structure and type of breeding dogs. As it is though, some breeds aren't even remotely judged according to the written (or illustrated) standard, show breeders seem to determine what is correct based on what looks best, educate newbies in the breed as to what is correct and educate judges on what they feel should be most important when judging. So much for a method of evaluating structure and breed type  according to the standard - the emperor has no clothes ;)

 The GSD judges to be are told that side gait/flying trot is everything, supposedly because it "would allow them to work all day without becoming tired and cover a lot of ground in just a few strides". Dogs with extreme reach and drive tend to be ackward at best when moving at any other speed, tend to be unable to turn well, don't seem able to run very fast and have a tendency towards loose ligaments. But this is what show GSD people have collectively excepted as being correct. So while everyone else (working GSD people, show people in other breeds, performance dog people, the pet owning public) thinks such dogs look "crippled" the GSD breeders stick by their claims that this is what a GSD was always intended to look like.

 At one judges education I went to with Belgians, it was asked what perctenage their heads should be judged on. Turns out this group had just finished up with collies and were told by the presenter that collies should be judged at least 70% on their heads. If it came down to a dog with outstanding structure but head faults and a dog with so-so structure and an outstanding head, the dog with the outstanding head should win because head and expression are what defines the breed.

 I'm sure it works that way in other breeds as well. But I don't place blame on the regsitry so much as the show only breeders. AKC offers plenty of "other stuff" to do with dogs in addition to conformation, often at the same shows. In some breeds it is uncommon to find breed CHs with other titles but that isn't due to the registry. People will be people after all.

AgileGSD

Just because people take it seriously doesn't mean that it isn't just a game. People can become quite serious about games, especially when a lot of money is involved. And some people do still try to keep up the illusion that it is something more meaningful, saying it is the best way to evaluate structure and type of breeding dogs. 

     Isn't that the truth.

     Dog breeding is a hobby, as are the competitive sports that sometimes go along with it. Conformation shows in certain breeds are a farce, and the phony hunting scenarios of field trials and other work simulation trials are just that - play games. They're fun, and most like the competition, but as for their usefulness in evaluating breeding stock I dunno. As much as the natural instinct & anility, desire has remained in my breed, there is a joke among rabbit hunters that the big name field trialers sometimes have one dog for trials and another to gun hunt with. Now that's not always the case but the true test of working ability is to actually let the dog do the work! After a few years of sporradic field trialing I've come to the conclusion there is less prevailing stupidity and politics in showing Beagles as there is in trialing them. Especially in AKC & ARHA. There is more backstabbing and buddy judging and cliques in the Beage trial world that it almost has nothing whatsoever to do with the rabbit hunting anymore. Those people are more concerned with impressing friends with the speed & flashy style (in regards to line control & check work) of their hounds than actually enjoying the hunt. Finding someone that loves to hunt so bad they do it alone more oft than not is becoming rare. You can't convice me a FC hound will make a better rabbit dog than the guy down the street who runs rabbits practicaly every day. There is nothing to prove with real working dogs. They can either do their job, or they can't. How well they do it does not need to be compared to another dog of the same breed for one to know that they are both excellent working dogs.

     Shows are a nice place to meet people and compare dogs, find studs, pups, etc. If you've bred a good example of the breed, a conformation championship on paper doesn't make that dog better than he was before he was titled. Personally, I find the real fun & sport not in cpmpeting the dogs against each other but in producing them in the first place ... I have a 4 month old pup we're currently doing puppy classes with in preparation for an obedience title. My goal is to get a U-CD title on her. Because I think she can be the total package that can do it all; hunt, show (UKC) and obedience. It's more about proving something to myself than about the dog. She will be the same dog if she doesn't get any of the titles - and she might not, becuase I am on a shoestring budget as it is. She'll have had the same training, same time in the field, same inherent structure & breeding and will contribute (hopefully!) just as well to the gene pool without the titles than with. When you put your hands on a dog to evaluate their structure and watch them in the field, there is no field or show champion. Just a dog that either has it or doesn't.

      I know, I digress & have gone into another rant. But I think AKC was built on a foundation of cards, that has finally collapsed under it's own weight. Their stance on purity of the breeding - as if crossing out for improvements on health, structure and working would somehow taint the breeding - is outdated Victorian, elitist thinking and eventually had to collapse it was so nonsensical. Now they're professing themselves as the premier registry, but I got news for them, they ain't. Some of the best in my breed are UKC titled - hell, we even have a multi titled weight pulling dual purpose Beagle (Ajax) in UKC. Personally, I breed dogs not papers or registries, but what do I know?

HoundMusic

    I know, I digress & have gone into another rant. But I think AKC was built on a foundation of cards, that has finally collapsed under it's own weight. Their stance on purity of the breeding - as if crossing out for improvements on health, structure and working would somehow taint the breeding - is outdated Victorian, elitist thinking and eventually had to collapse it was so nonsensical. Now they're professing themselves as the premier registry, but I got news for them, they ain't. Some of the best in my breed are UKC titled - hell, we even have a multi titled weight pulling dual purpose Beagle (Ajax) in UKC. Personally, I breed dogs not papers or registries, but what do I know?

So does UKC allow cross breeding of registered dogs? I didn't realize that.

buster the show dog

So does UKC allow cross breeding of registered dogs? I didn't realize that.

"crossing out" can mean different breeds, or just different lines.  For example, a few breeders of American line GSDs will "outcross" to west German bred dogs.  Same breed, different type.

I think what is meant is that the highest ideal that built the AKC was the show dog (and really still is), while the UKC's emphasis was first on the working or all around dog.  It's a matter of philosophical priority and who is the tops and calls the shots, and who is marginalized when making decisions (ever tried to get some reform done on your working title program?  Ha!). 

buster the show dog

So does UKC allow cross breeding of registered dogs? I didn't realize that.

     For most breeds, UKC is a closed registry, and an AKC pedigree is a requirement for registration. However, there are numerous breeds, primarily the working/hunting dogs, that do not need a pedigree (ANY written pedigree) to be registered with UKC. Beagles are among those. When registering one of my males, I simply wrote out his 3 gen pedigree on the UKC hunting Beagle Reg Application. I honestly think this is the way it should be for ALL breeds! Not to make designer mutts, but history dictates that every pure breed of dog was considered a singular breed at one time - however, even so, the occasional outcross was made to another breed to bring in or weed out a trait. For instance, with Schipperkes, they were bred down from the Leuvenaar (think Gronendael, only much smaller), and to reduce the size even further, Pomeranian blood was added. The early breeders wouldn't just outcorss willy nilly, but if their Schipperkes started producing overly large pups, Pom blood would be again added to size down the next generation.

     There are plenty of hunting Beagles that have not been outcrossed with other breeds but just don't have papers ... UKC will register them with or w/o a pedigree. If those bloodlines were to be allowed to dissipate because of lack of papers, the gene pool would shrink even further. The breed would still be Beagles, bred for the same purpose, and UKC does not encourage crossbreeding as in breeding a beagle to a Basset and registering the litter as a Beagle, but they are an "open" registry for many breeds.

     The notion that dogs should be registered and have bloodlines kept pure is a relatively new one, and if the gene pool was scanty to begin with in the foundation of a breed, you are just asking for genetic problems down the road. There must be diversity, and closed registries jsut do not encourage this.

AgileGSD, I've found a much better explanation of what I'm saying about conformation being the be-all end all for the AKC.  It comes from the AKC itself:

Conformation
If you have questions or comments about Conformation, contact the AKC staff.

Dog shows, or "conformation" events, are the signature events of the AKC. They concentrate on the distinctive features of purebred dogs and help to preserve these characteristics by providing a forum at which to evaluate breeding stock.

Exhibits are judged against individual breed standards, which have been established for the AKC-recognized breeds by their parent clubs. These written standards describe the ideal size, color, and temperament of each breed, as well as correct proportion, structure, and movement.

(Emphasis added) 

brookcove

AgileGSD, I've found a much better explanation of what I'm saying about conformation being the be-all end all for the AKC.  It comes from the AKC itself:

Conformation
If you have questions or comments about Conformation, contact the AKC staff.

Dog shows, or "conformation" events, are the signature events of the AKC. They concentrate on the distinctive features of purebred dogs and help to preserve these characteristics by providing a forum at which to evaluate breeding stock.

Exhibits are judged against individual breed standards, which have been established for the AKC-recognized breeds by their parent clubs. These written standards describe the ideal size, color, and temperament of each breed, as well as correct proportion, structure, and movement.

(Emphasis added) 

 I understand what you are saying. Conformation shows started as a way to evaluate breeding stock, now they're just a game (of course AKC probably isn't going to say such). AKC's first events were conformation shows, so it is no surpise they would call them their signature events. That doesn't mean though that people competive in AKC performance events are any less serious about the AKC game they choose to play.

I personaly believe that breed registries are much better. They are used for one breed and one breed only, not 200.

I'm very anti-AKC for my BC's....Border Collie's are not confromation dogs, they were never bred to have a special 'look'. The Lassie-type dog's that AKC's calling a Border Collie just doesnt fit. I have yet to see a smooth coated BC at an AKC conformation show, all the dog's are heavy, double think, rough coats. It just doesn't fit in my opinion.

Sorry to anyone who is Ok with BC's in the AKC....

misstrouble

I personaly believe that breed registries are much better. They are used for one breed and one breed only, not 200.

I'm very anti-AKC for my BC's....Border Collie's are not confromation dogs, they were never bred to have a special 'look'. The Lassie-type dog's that AKC's calling a Border Collie just doesnt fit. I have yet to see a smooth coated BC at an AKC conformation show, all the dog's are heavy, double think, rough coats. It just doesn't fit in my opinion.

Sorry to anyone who is Ok with BC's in the AKC....

 I have seen some "odd ball" BCs (only when compared to the typical fluffy B&W cookie cutter show BCs) at shows here - smooth coats, merles, tris, red tris, a sable and a blue (I think the only blue I have ever seen). I even know a few that are finished but they are very much the minority. FWIW when the breed first became AKC recognized, I saw a lot more variety being shown and winning. Now on a big winning level, I can't think off hand of having seen any smooths being heavily campaigned for sure, no "odd ball" colors either.

  I can also say that right from the start the show dog people I know LOVED the show BCs. They would comment on how they never knew BCs could be pretty and that most BCs they come across are "ugly" or "look like mutts". No matter how hard I tried to explain that while they may be pretty, they weren't really BCs, that BCs are not supposed to look like anything in specific but are valued on their working ability these long time show dog people just could not grasp it. They saw an eye catching, fluffy dog with generic show dog movement and they were all in love. And so BCs quickly became not only show dogs but a breed which is very competive at the Group and BIS level.

I remember how horrified I was when I was listening in on a show BC list, and someone was complaining that she couldn't get a Ch. on her tri colored dog.  The folks all insisted that there must be something terribly wrong with her dog.  No, she'd had the dog looked over by multiple judges and several of them said the dog was fine, nothing to explain why often even with just two dogs in the ring she'd simply be excused.  Her dog had assymetrical ears, as do many well-bred dogs, and ticking, which some judges used as their explanation for excusal (it's supposed to be acceptable, however).

Do you know what would happen to herding ability if a significant portion of the population were culled for smooth coat, ticking and tri color?  Not to mention show type angulation.  Oh wait, you can see it already in the NZ/Aus type of dog! 

brookcove

I remember how horrified I was when I was listening in on a show BC list, and someone was complaining that she couldn't get a Ch. on her tri colored dog.  The folks all insisted that there must be something terribly wrong with her dog.  No, she'd had the dog looked over by multiple judges and several of them said the dog was fine, nothing to explain why often even with just two dogs in the ring she'd simply be excused.  Her dog had assymetrical ears, as do many well-bred dogs, and ticking, which some judges used as their explanation for excusal (it's supposed to be acceptable, however).

 Sadly that is the way it goes with showing dogs. My dogs have done well at National Specialties but a couple I have really struggled with at all breed shows. Jagger carries his tail high and it ruins the "picture" for many judges. Loki had very little coat (but correct) until she had her first litter. I couldn't get points on her for anything! Otherwise she is a well put together bitch, with nice movement and a nice outline. She was second in a large class at the National during the time that I was showing her and unable to get points on her. I stopped showing her after awhile because it was obviously a waste of money. Her breeder took her out years later and she finished easily at 8 years old. Last year right before she finished she was second in the Veterns class at the National and the judge remarked that she "could be competive as a special and shouldn't be in this class".

  Conformation showing is VERY frustrating like that. I go back and forth on if I even want to pursue it, as it does take away from how much other stuff I can do with the dogs. But I do like to win and I have already put so much money, time and effort into it at this point. And Belgian people like to see CHs in front of the dog's name. It used to be they wanted to see CHs in front and "other stuff" behind but I'm afraifd more and more people are moving away from that now :(

brookcove

Do you know what would happen to herding ability if a significant portion of the population were culled for smooth coat, ticking and tri color?  Not to mention show type angulation.  Oh wait, you can see it already in the NZ/Aus type of dog! 

 The show BC people aren't real concerned with herding ability to begin with, so I'm sure that is a non-issue for them.

 The problem is that currently the gene pool is continuous between show and working.  The serious people on both ends maintain "pure" lines but neither will be able to do that indefinitely without expansion into the territory in the middle.  The direction of that middle is what's up for "grabs" at the moment.  In NZ/Aus, that was the show type.  In the UK, it's going strongly towards the working type thanks to promotion of ISDS events and the fact that the UK is the homeland of the BC (there's no disguising the value of the working dog there).