Oprah on Puppymills

Yes, there are puppy mills all over the US!  This is not an easy bill to write in PA , since if could PUT good breeders and kennels out of business!!!  Do you know why dog law in under Dept of Argiculture in PA?  Well I do, I want to see if "hound music" does!!!  

Sera_J

they come from filth and mistreatment from people who see them as disposable. 

The state have a on-line site where you can look up the inspection records of all kennels that have licenses. 

http://services.agriculture.state.pa.us/KennelInspections/SearchKennelInspections.aspx

I did find a quote that 90% of all kennels passed this inspection with no unsatisfactory ratings in all 26 areas of inspection.

 I don't really understand the difference between a good commercial breeder and a puppy mill.  To me a puppy mill is a place that breeds dogs for profit, has too many dogs to care for properly,  and doesn't screen homes like they should.  And most often, breeding stock that has little more than a piece of paper saying they are purebred.  Whether the living conditions are passable or not is not the defining element as far as I'm concerned. 

I understand that Oprah's show focused on the puppy mills where true horror stories happen.  In degrees of offense, I agree there are some that are worse than others, obviously.  But a Broker is a broker is a broker to me.  None are good.

Callie

We have to remember here -- we can't legilslate morality successfully.  We can educate people, we can tell them what they SHOULD buy, but we can't take away basic rights.  You can't make it illegal for someone to allow their dog to get pregnant, essentially -- you can only legislate businesses and "quantity".

 Wow!  You put it into words beautifully! 

timsdat

Sera_J

they come from filth and mistreatment from people who see them as disposable. 

The state have a on-line site where you can look up the inspection records of all kennels that have licenses. 

http://services.agriculture.state.pa.us/KennelInspections/SearchKennelInspections.aspx

I did find a quote that 90% of all kennels passed this inspection with no unsatisfactory ratings in all 26 areas of inspection.

 

huskymom

None are good.

Well that is fine that you feel that way but do you think that legislation or the right to breed should be based on your very narrow definition of a good breeder.  Because if you do there would be very few puppies born each year.  Let me give you an example. 

We have in the US about 75 million dogs per surveys done.  Dogs live on the average of about 10 to 11 years.  We'll take 10 years to make the math easier.  Well since the population of dogs is growing every year that means that there needs to be more than 7 million puppies born each year to keep the population growing as it is.

From information I have seen it is estimated that 20% of the puppies come from commercial breeders, 67% from BYB's and about 12% from what you would consider a good breeder, and about 1% from feral populations.  From looking at AKC stats and having a feel for how many people are out there in the show world that really sounds about right.

Well that means that if the only puppies born was that 12% then we would have serious shortfall in the numbers of puppies to meet the demand for dogs.  Well you know the outcome, prices for puppies would rise significantly, people of less economic means would be able to have a dog, more and more dogs would be imported into this country (usually from 3rd world countries) to try to meet the demand.  Think kennel standards are bad in this country!

So in the end we must look at the realities of dog ownership and ask whether we want dogs to be only the property of the rich!!!

Wowza.

 I'm not following your line of reasoning.  According to this episode there are 4 million unwanted pets that are put to sleep.  I'm sure the reputable breeders would be willing to step up on the production of quality puppies if there were more homes for them, which apparently there would be should we get rid of the commercial breeders.  And in my opinion just because someone wants a dog doesn't mean they should have one, if they can't pass the test set forth by reputable breeders, then maybe they just shouldn't have one.  Less about the rich, and more about the quality of homes.
 

Obviously, even amongst us dog lovers here, there are huge descrepency about how to legislate the entire "pet business."

I think Oprah did a wonderful job, given the fact that after commercials, her entire show was probably no more than 30 min long, but yet she touched upon all the important issues, and more importantly opened our eyes to educate OURSELVES; what she did was just an introduction to the topic.

 I think Callie did it beautifully; obviously we can't take away someone's right to breed a dog or where to acquire a dog, but we can educate others to make more of an informed decision on where and how to do it.

Sera_J

According to this episode there are 4 million unwanted pets that are put to sleep.

Yes but is that a reliable number.  Also it includes cats and dogs, how many of those put down are due to medical reasons, behavioral reasons, etc that don't make them a pet.

Sera_J

I'm sure the reputable breeders would be willing to step up on the production of quality puppies if there were more homes for them,

Don't be so sure about that.  The breeders I know have waiting lists already and don't step up production.  They breed the number they breed for some of the following reasons, they have quality standards, breeding limit laws that restrict the number that they can have, pet limit laws that restrict the total number of dogs that they can have, they already are at the limit of what then can handle, more dogs= more manpower and space required, zoning laws that restrict the activity on their property.

Sera_J

they can't pass the test set forth by reputable breeders, then maybe they just shouldn't have one. 

You know a good number of people on this board would not pass the tests that some breeders I know have.  You think that some rescues have strict rules!   Guess what, then they are defined as snooty breeders.

Sera_J

more about the quality of homes.

You know we are talking about an animal.  It's a shame these same standards aren't suggested for our children.

CoCo Chanel

obviously we can't take away someone's right to breed a dog or where to acquire a dog

But that is what is happening.  Maybe not completely taking the right away but making it so hard to do that running a breeding program becomes impossible.

I too don't quite understand the problem.  I bred for several years, so what happens in the breeding world is not alien to me.  I do have some understanding and even "back in the day" I and other breeders wished for stronger regulations and most especially to shut down the puppy mills.  I'm not so sure that the folks involved in this show were so much the "evil" AR folks, but rather the more palatable AW folks.  And, perhaps I missed it, but, I didn't see anyone pushing the legislation that you are so afraid of.

timsdat

Sera_J

more about the quality of homes.

You know we are talking about an animal.  It's a shame these same standards aren't suggested for our children.

 

You know we are on a dog board, right?

Obviously, to the vast majority of people on here they are not "just animals."

I don't know how you can argue that our society does not want good families for its children.  I have two cousins that are currently in the foster care system--not because they were physically or sexually abused, but because their parents are morons and just bad parents.  My older cousin was taken away and put in a jeuvy and then a therapeutic foster home after his mother failed to keep him going to school.  He does not want to go back to live with his mom.  His younger sister was taken away when my aunt was kicked out of a homeless shelter and now too is doing well in a foster home.   

My mom is a teacher and works all the time to help parents with difficult kids out and make home life better for those kinds.  There are WAY more laws governing child welfare, working hours and conditions, etc then there are when it comes to animal welfare--as well as WAY more manpower enforcing said laws.  If you think that is untrue then I suggest you do some research   

glenmar

I too don't quite understand the problem.  I bred for several years, so what happens in the breeding world is not alien to me.  I do have some understanding and even "back in the day" I and other breeders wished for stronger regulations and most especially to shut down the puppy mills.  I'm not so sure that the folks involved in this show were so much the "evil" AR folks, but rather the more palatable AW folks.  And, perhaps I missed it, but, I didn't see anyone pushing the legislation that you are so afraid of.

I guess what really irritates me is that with some people on here it seems to be a black or white thing.  Either you think Iditarod must be run exactly as it is being run today, or you must be an animal rights activist who wants all animal sports abolished.  Either the dog community must accept every breeding operation as legit and OK as long as it passes USDA inspection (you know, the same organization which thinks factory farms are a-ok), or you are obviously a self-righteous closet AR person that can't seem to understand that we are only talking about animals here.  

This is the wrong conversation.  Haven't you all learned that the only individual that you can control is yourself.  The only way to control individuals is by the power of law or professional accreditations.

What I got of Oprah's show was that the majority of dogs that are produced by all breeders get adopted and get adequate living conditions.  It is the unwanted, the discarded, the euthanized that should be focus.  Its not about your opinion, not about what you can't do, but its about what you can do.  With 70 million dogs in this country in 2/3rds as many households, I don't see why "dog lovers", "dog owners" can't find a corner in their home to take the dog in and work on placement.  Its all about the individual dog and the difference it makes to that individual dog.  The simple fact that these dogs are euthanized is that they have no champion.  Becoming a champion is easy and it won't contribute to the breeder business.  This is something individuals can do while the "breeder" is worked out if it ever is worked out.

timsdat

From information I have seen it is estimated that 20% of the puppies come from commercial breeders, 67% from BYB's and about 12% from what you would consider a good breeder

This adds up to 99%. This doesn't account for the world of mutts. What about the random breedings that just occur and end up in shelters? Surely they provide a huge percentage of dogs. If people turned to shelters more, I don't see the problem of a dog shortage. In fact, with the gross overpopulation of dogs, it seems a bit outrageous to talk of fear of a dog shortage.

timsdat

Well that means that if the only puppies born was that 12% then we would have serious shortfall in the numbers of puppies to meet the demand for dogs. 

If 87% of puppies are coming from less than "good breeders", then some percentage can raise their standards and become "good breeders". The fact is, it's a responsibility to bring life into this world. If a person wants to breed dogs, they need to step up and take responsibility for making the quality of that life the best they can.

sillysally

Either the dog community must accept every breeding operation as legit and OK as long as it passes USDA inspection (you know, the same organization which thinks factory farms are a-ok), or you are obviously a self-righteous closet AR person that can't seem to understand that we are only talking about animals here.  

This is a time-honored strategy - to make your "opponent" look like an extremist nut-job to invalidate their position. Fortunately, most of us know that we aren't AR extremists and it doesn't matter how many times we are called that. We care about the welfare of dogs. That does NOT make us animal rights activists.