Oprah on Puppymills

 It's like some of us are arguing (on a DOG BOARD no less) that the millions of dogs and cats euthanized each year are not a "big deal" and not at all connected to the "commercial breeders" whether they be "good" or bad ones. How can anyone defend these commercial breeders that are contributing to this sad problem even if the pups they produce are in clean runs with good ventilation and healthy standards?

To be clear and identify myself since this seems to really include semantics as well, I am in between animal welfare and animal rights, I agree with some areas of both as previously defined a page ago.

I DO NOT believe, personally, that commercial breeders should be allowed to operate as long as all of these dogs and cats are being euthanized and personally, if the prices of dogs and cats go up because of it, good. Maybe this is "extremist" but I'd only be happy with the situation if every dog was going to a home that the breeder screened and every litter was planned and spoken for, and shelters weren't painfully gassing perfectly good dogs daily.

I absolutely agree with REPUTABLE breeding... I have no problem with pets, hunting, people eating meat, etc... I just want there to be less suffering... people included.
 

 I looked back at DPU's post... and it made an eloquent point. I'm arguing this without doing anything about the problem, so today, I'm going to take that step.

DPU, can you give any advice on finding a needy dog to foster?  

To me a puppy mill is a place that breeds dogs for profit, has too many dogs to care for properly,  and doesn't screen homes like they should.  And most often, breeding stock that has little more than a piece of paper saying they are purebred.  Whether the living conditions are passable or not is not the defining element as far as I'm concerned.

timsdat

Well that is fine that you feel that way but do you think that legislation or the right to breed should be based on your very narrow definition of a good breeder.

I'm sorry Steve, but in my opinion, if you  have too many dogs to care for, that = BAD.   We, on this board all agree that it takes more than a clean bed, bottom of the line food, and fresh water to properly care for a dog.  So lets add puppies into the mix?

So in answer to your question, Yes, I do think my "very narrow definition of a good breeder" is a great place to start.  Imagine that, if the only requirements of a breeder were to take proper care, both physically and mentally of their breeding stock and pups.  You're right, I'm sure the country would see a huge shortage in puppies very soon...

outdoorschik

 I looked back at DPU's post... and it made an eloquent point. I'm arguing this without doing anything about the problem, so today, I'm going to take that step.

DPU, can you give any advice on finding a needy dog to foster?  

 I'm not DPU, but I can give some suggestions on little things people can do to help out.  I work at the local humane society and we are ALWAYS in need of fosters!  You can go down there and just ask at the front desk and they will be ecstatic.  A dog or cat that is in a foster home frees up room for another to be kept at the shelter. 
 

Or say you're like me and in an apartment with pet regulations and can't foster right now- you can always volunteer.  The dogs need people to walk them and clean and play with them.  If nothing else you can make their time in the shelter not so bad.

 
Or if you can't donate time, you can always donate things like dog food.  We're always in need of food. 

 
and then there's always adoption.  My next dog when I get out of this apartment is going to be a BC or an Aussie from a shelter.  We always have them and they're all great dogs. 

 

outdoorschik

DPU, can you give any advice on finding a needy dog to foster?

Wow... Your post made me cry. Thanks to you, DPU and all who foster!  

FourIsCompany

This adds up to 99%. This doesn't account for the world of mutts. What about the random breedings that just occur and end up in shelters? Surely they provide a huge percentage of dogs. If people turned to shelters more, I don't see the problem of a dog shortage. In fact, with the gross overpopulation of dogs, it seems a bit outrageous to talk of fear of a dog shortage.

99%.  You forgot the 1% estimated to be ferals.  Yes I did account for the world of mutts.  They are part of the BYB group.  The BYB group includes anyone who isn't part of the other groups.  By the way there already are regional shortages.  Why do you think that northeast shelter are having to import dogs and puppies are sold coming across the Mexico border.

Gross overpopulation of dogs come on.  There are over 75 million owned dogs.  The estimate is about 4 million pets are pts.  Probably less than half of those are dogs.  Of those dogs there is a percentage that are unadoptable.  Now we are talking well less than 2 million dogs, probably in the range of about 1-1.5 million.  So you tell me that 1-2% is a huge problem.  Come on.

FourIsCompany

This is a time-honored strategy - to make your "opponent" look like an extremist nut-job to invalidate their position. Fortunately, most of us know that we aren't AR extremists and it doesn't matter how many times we are called that. We care about the welfare of dogs. That does NOT make us animal rights activists.

Maybe not extremeists but people surely have drank the kool-aid.  When one believes their claims that all puppies in pet stores are the result of the images that they portray one is taking that big sip and well on their way.

This was posted on another forum and I got permission from the poster to re-post here. 

Honestly I don't think the problem lies with the breeders be they good or bad. I think it lies with the consumer. The AVERAGE person can only have success with a small percentage of dogs. We are fooling ourselves if we think the average dog can be placed in the average family and get a forever home. The average person doesn't provide enough exercise to manage high energy dogs. The average person doesn't provide enough structure and consistency to handle dogs with any herding or guarding tendancies. The average person isn't prepared to handle anything but average medical issues. The average person doesn't understand that they are responsible to be the pack leader.

Look down the rows of dogs in the shelter. You don't see dogs there because the breeder (good or bad) couldn't sell them and simply dropped them off. Very few dogs are actually "wild." While a good number these days are pit bull types that have been discarded by thugs many are family dogs discarded by their families - homes that failed them.

The dog was cute as a puppy and got too big and hard to manage.

The dog has too many accidents in the house.

The dog started nipping .

The dog digs up the yard.

The dog destroys property.

The dog is aggressive toward other dogs or people.

The owners moved and it was inconvenient to find an apartment that allows pets.

The dog developed a medical condition and the owners find it too much to deal with.

The dog developed a medical condition and the owners find it too expensive.

The only dog that works in the average home is one that can tolerate average amount of exercise, average amount of direction, average amount of medical attention & average amount of attention without getting upset, fearful, sick, "naughty" or aggressive. When they do get hyper, sick, have seperation anxiety, start nipping or peeing on the rug, etc. off they go to the shelter. Then that same average family moves on to their next dog - a "better" dog - one that won't act like that last one.

Look at your neighbors. How many average dog owners do you see? If they are lucky enough to own even tempered, lower energy breeds then everyone is happy. Or perhaps they don't have children and can get away with owning the ill mannered dog they created. Or perhaps they live on enough land where it isn't really a problem that their dog is ignored or destructive or hyper. Otherwise, off to the shelter they go.

 I have to say I am in TOTAL agreement with this person.  I have been reading posts about how people need to charge a fee to rehome dogs, the breeding problems, etc.

The REAL problem is people don't know how and most won't invest the time and energy required to really TRAIN AND EXERCISE their dogs. And I'm not talking "sit" and "stay" though those things are nice. I'm talking giving them enough exercise to prevent them from digging up the yard, how not to jump on people, socializing them, ect.

This IS the real issue behind the dogs at the shelter. I know. I've had to work with the ones there and all of them have behavior issues. Issues that for the most part can be resolved with lots of time and patience, but wouldn't have been issues in the first place with proper training, socialization and EXERCISE.

Oh, and proper choice of dog in the first place. Don't get the average border collie if you live in an apartment and don't like to go outside for exercise. I can't tell you how many ill-suited dogs I have seen go to sedentary people. Then they wonder why it didn't work out.

 I have been struggling with my feelings on this matter for some time.  I don't always truly agree with the mandatory spay/neuter thing and despite my years in animal rescue had the fleeting thought of breeding my dog and keeping his puppies (probably not too many - he's a Chi), but of course, instead I immediately had him neutered because I knew it was the right thing to do.  But I have mixed feelings about breeding - not on puppy mills - they are just plain evil - but on breeding in general.  This other poster really set my head on straight and clarified what I have been thinking all along.

There certainly is no lack of blame to go around. Pet owners are a big problem but they are not the only ones. It's not just about dogs in shelters. It's also about the bitchs that never put their paws on solid ground, never been outside a small cage,  have over a hundred puppies,  are cold, dirty, sick. These dogs will never make it to a shelter. When they can no longer reproduce they are either left to die or shot through the head.

FourIsCompany

 

timsdat

From information I have seen it is estimated that 20% of the puppies come from commercial breeders, 67% from BYB's and about 12% from what you would consider a good breeder

 

timsdat

Well that means that if the only puppies born was that 12% then we would have serious shortfall in the numbers of puppies to meet the demand for dogs. 

 

If 87% of puppies are coming from less than "good breeders", then some percentage can raise their standards and become "good breeders". The fact is, it's a responsibility to bring life into this world. If a person wants to breed dogs, they need to step up and take responsibility for making the quality of that life the best they can.

I think a big part the reason that only a small percentage of puppies are produced by what many of us would consider responsible breeders is NOT that these breeders can't, or don't want to, produce more puppies responsibly. Rather, by virtue of being responsible, they choose to limit their breeding because of the difficulty in competing with the guy selling "real cute" yorkies out of the back of the pick up truck and the "purebred with papers" beagle from the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm, and 100 dogs in their breed that needed rescue in their area in the past year. If these disreputable sources of puppies were more limited, I know plenty of highly responsible breeders who would love to have a second litter from their CH/performance titled bitch with the excellent OFA rating, but aren't breeding her because they have two fosters to place, and potential puppy buyers are going for the the labradoodle in the pet store instead. I am not anti-breeder. I've bred one litter myself, and all eight of the dogs I have owned have come from breeders. But of all the arguments against discouraging commericial breeding, the spectre of a puppy shortage seems the most absurd. I agree with FiC. Discouraging commercial breeding, doesn't prevent anyone from raising their standards, and if some of the scum was removed from the breeding business, it would make it easier for genuinely responsible breeders to increase their breeding activity.

denise m

There certainly is no lack of blame to go around. Pet owners are a big problem but they are not the only ones. It's not just about dogs in shelters. It's also about the bitchs that never put their paws on solid ground, never been outside a small cage,  have over a hundred puppies,  are cold, dirty, sick. These dogs will never make it to a shelter. When they can no longer reproduce they are either left to die or shot through the head.

Again, I have to say turn your concerns into helpful actions that will help the dogs on the edge.  You can not reach or touch the breeder.  Only law will force changes or the breeders as a cohesive group themselves.  If you want to play the blame game, then the economy and the weather has to be included.  These are other things that the average dog owner has no control over, but they most certainly can complain about it and they most certainly put dogs in shelters.

 We do have a corner in our house glenda... unfortunately I feel like my hands are tied since I'm having a tough time finding a group to foster for up here. We have two humane societies and one no kill shelter in a 1.5 hour radius and none of those three have foster programs. When I lived in NJ it was so easy to lend a hand...I fostered rescued racing greyhounds for a few years. I miss Snickers and am not ready to replace her in our pack but I feel like her "spot' could be filled by a needy dog or a series of dogs. While I'd have difficulty volunteering time at a shelter (most of my time would be spent just driving there), and I can't donate much money, I would love to give what I do have right now, space, time and some healthy food. I'm going to keep researching and trying to find a contact. When I picked up snickers' ashes today at the vet I asked there too and they couldn't think of a group or person to suggest.

I'm so sorry about Snickers.

Right now, even my BATHROOM is taken!  That's where the cats are living.

There are two in rescue that I would bring home in a heartbeat if home wasn't an RV!  Gracie is a pit bull who loves to give me kisses and barks the second she senses that I'm around so that I'll bring her cookies.  Bailey is a yellow lab/greyhound mix who is the sweetest boy, but suffers severe SA.  He likes to give me kisses too!  Both are so very sweet and they both stole my heart!  I wouldn't be fostering though........ 

outdoorschik

 We do have a corner in our house glenda... unfortunately I feel like my hands are tied since I'm having a tough time finding a group to foster for up here.

I am sure there are many national rescue organization that you can volunteer for and foster.  A lot human societies that have a faclity and have a government municipal contract want their dogs in the shelter for better exposure.  But then the trade-off is euth for space.  Whenever I get a new foster and the breed is new to me, I contact the breed rescue for an education.  I've seen a few national organization and the one below says I can foster for them any time.  Their headquaters is in New Jersey and I have talked with one of their foster parents as far as California.  Transport should never be a problem (althought its a lot of work) and since it seems in your area there is no competition, placing the foster dog should be easy.  In my avatar is Lady, a field pointer that I fostered and got connect with the below organization.

PointerRescue.Org, Inc. (PRO) is a non-profit group of coordinators and volunteers across the United States dedicated to the rescue of purebred Pointers (sometimes called English or American Field Pointers). 

I watched the Oprah show yesterday and it really touched me quite deeply.  As a dog lover I felt that Oprah's show was extremely beneficial for opening up the general public's eyes to both the issue of puppy mills as well as the desperate situation that many dogs face when they are put into shelters.  In the hour that the show aired I think that Oprah did a great job of raising awareness to a huge audience.  So regardless of the difference of opinons here on this forum, I think that we as dog lovers can all agree that the fact that such a huge audience was exposed to these issues will hopefully improve the situation through education and action!